Someone recently passed this article on to me, which I posted on another board. It was promptly removed. So sad . . .

Frightening News from France

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently

not being reported as it should. To give you an idea

of what's going on in France where there are now

between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews,

here is an email that came from a Jew living in

France. Please read! Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?

"I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to

everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back

and do nothing." Nowhere have the flames of

anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France:

Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set

on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center

was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and

Marseilles; so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently.

A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with

Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred

Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" were

painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a

Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The

bus that takes Jewish children to school in

Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen

10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past

30 days. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been

defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to the gas

chambers" and "Death to the Jews."

A gunman opened fire on a Kosher butcher's shop

(and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse , France;

a Jewish couple in their 20s were beaten up by five

men in Villeurbanne , France . The woman was

pregnant; a Jewish school was broken into and

vandalized in Sarcelles , France . This was just in

the past week.

So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a

friend, or merely a person with the capacity and

desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do,

at least, these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let

yourself become deluded into thinking that this is

no t your fight. I remind you of what Pastor

Neimoller said in World War II: "First they came for

the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I

wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and

I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they

came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up,

because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one left to speak up

for me".

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the

Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and,

unlike them, France exports more than just oil and

hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes.

Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott

their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If

we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and,

whatever else we may know about the French, we most

certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a

hurricane in the face of well directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends,

and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of

good conscience that you know and let them know

that you and the people that you care about need

their help. The number one best selling book in

France is "September 11: The Frightening Fraud,"

which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon."

Do you believe the Bible is literal? I think I remember that you don't from other posts, but sometimes I get all my people confused.

I've never said one way or another. TOM really is the only one I remember saying he didn't think it was.

I haven't talked much about beliefs and faith at all. Other then to state I'm a Christian. I've been talking much more about how the message is delivered.

TOM is the only one who addressed the question, but he did not answer it. He said it was personal.

What I meant was I thought he was the only Christian who said he didn't think it was literial?

Jesus might disagree with you! he said, "these thingts have i given unto you that you may KNOW that you have eternal life"!! Seems like proof to me!

Only when he uses it to put other people down and only when he says don't blame me, God says it.

People do not want to be told they have to worship his way or else, but don't blame me, blame yourself for not following God's way.

NONE OF US HAVE ANY PROOF THAT WE HAVE THE WAY TO ETERNAL SALVATION.

We may have faith, but no proof. I do not want anyone's interpretation of his holy book held over me as a Weapon of Mental Destruction (WMD).

Only when he uses it to put other people down and only when he says don't blame me, God says it.

People do not want to be told they have to worship his way or else, but don't blame me, blame yourself for not following God's way.

I don't recall Ron ever saying people had to worship his way. In fact, I remember him telling someone that they had the right to believe whatever they want to believe.

What I meant was I thought he was the only Christian who said he didn't think it was literial?

Oh - sorry I misunderstood. But I think there were others who said they didn't think it was literal. I don't remember who now and it's difficult to wade through all of the pages of this thread.

Do you think it's literal?

I will be running out shortly but will be back later to participate again. I am not running away, as some may like, but have someplace I need to go.

Do you think it's literal?

Basically, yes i do.

gadgetlady: Ron says that his way is the only way. His way is based on his knowledge, after 30 years of study, that the Bible is to be taken as literal and that the Bible's verses are proof that if we do not share in his beliefs specifically (since they are based on the literal Bible which is proof of his beliefs), we are (100% of us) going to hell and that we are fools.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Correction! I don't say that, the Bible say's that. I do not say that those who do not accept the Biblical Jesus are lost and that those wo do not believe in God are fools - the Bible say's that. You keep confusing what I say with what I quote from the Bible. There is a is difference between my opinion and what the Bible says.

gadgetlady: Ron says that his way is the only way. His way is based on his knowledge, after 30 years of study, that the Bible is to be taken as literal and that the Bible's verses are proof that if we do not share in his beliefs specifically (since they are based on the literal Bible which is proof of his beliefs), we are (100% of us) going to hell and that we are fools.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks Ron, for setting me straight. You don't say those things, the Bible does.

So you're saying that you don't think that people who do not accept the Bible as literal and do not belive that Jesus, the Son of God, died for our sins are not going to hell? I don't understand. If they don't accept the Bible and don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God and all the other things that you quote from the Bible here, that you have said are TRUE, 100%, then they are not going to hell?

Especially when people have hidden agendas and their intent was to never discuss what they originally posted, but was in fact a red herring.

Serious, I believe that two things may happen on these long threads which one will often find in the Rants & Raves section of LBT. Sometimes people do have hidden agendas when they post but I am inclined to think that these threads are more often like being present at a lively, a very, very lively dinner party. Conversations and debates are entered into and because these discussions are not formal ones - there are no rules that we have to stick to - material which may seem ancillary to the main topic will inevitably be introduced.

This particular thread has been kind of unusual, though. An email describing antisemitism in France was submitted by Cusano, a new member of LBT. When one of the other members, an individual whose information block states that she is a token atheist, questioned the bona fides of this particular document, Cusano responded by broaching the issue of her bona fides as an atheist. It was felt by some of the other members of this site that the language in which he conducted his inquiry was not neutral but, in fact, kinda judgemental. And thus the melee began.

While I recognise that many LBT-ers are distressed by much of what takes place in R&R I must say that I am personally not against these barroom brawls. I think they serve a purpose and I am both pleased and astonished that the overseers of this site were wise enough to establish this corner.

Let me explain my feelings on this issue. The world continues to be a complicated and disturbing environment. We are confronted with much more information, and we are much more sophisticated as a result, than our ancestors were. Because of this our environment becomes increasingly ambiguous and more interesting, both on a moral and intellectual level.

There was a time when personal well-being hinged upon being able to house, feed, and clothe your family. You did right by God and the church and you helped out a neighbouring family who was in distress. This was life in the days of the pioneers.

Life is obviously much more complex today and there are some of us who have a need to discuss these contentious 21st century issues. These discussions may appear brutal to those of you who drop in to R&R and who do not share the same taste for debate but there are some of us who derive considerable value from these brawls.

I can't speak for Ron and I think he's gone right now, but I for one learned a long time ago that it is not for me to judge and I certainly don't know whether someone is going to hell or not. I only know about me. I believe that we all get some of our theology wrong, and that we are sinners and forgiven through the blood of Christ (if we accept that forgiveness). So if someone believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for their sins on the cross yet gets some of their other theology wrong, or if someone doesn't interpret the Bible the same way I do, while I may believe they are wrong that doesn't mean I believe they are going to hell. I don't have the right or the ability to damn someone to hell, and I certainly am not the one who makes the rules. I know Ron doesn't think he is either.

It seems that the written word is up for interpretation, as a matter of fact the spoken word is far less ambiguous than the written word and still people will interpret based on their perspective. The phrase "and just what do you mean by that" comes to mind.

The passage "the only way to the Farther is through the Son"! may seem to have a single message for many. But I disagree, I can find more that one possible interpretation for that statement.

It is not unusual for the words that people write on this site to be read differently than the author had intended. We come to the party with unique perspectives and backgrounds and it is against those canvasses that we interpret the written word.

Even if the bible is divinely written, a premise I don't believe, it is not devinely interpreted. Mere mortals are reading it and mere mortals are procaliming that they know what the intent was. What if God said

the only way to the Farther is through the Son????

Is it your position that nothing in life is defined and everything is up for interpretation? Because that's what it sounds like. In my experience, in all disciplines, not just religion, some things are ambiguous and some things are perfectly clear. But I guess it just depends on what your definition of "is" is.

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