I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

Sorry, I'm not following.

"So, are you saying that could get them out of jail? We still have to abide by the law right...And criminals in regular jails can say the same thing. What's the difference? I don't think any laws have been changed. Speaking of laws, I think people should put more energy into changing laws......"

If you're referring to the religious proferring, no - that does not get them out of jail. And no, I did not say that. So I'm not sure what difference you're referring to. And I don't think I claimed that any laws were changed (?) Sorry, normally I can follow along pretty well, but I'm completely lost.

You are correct. I thought you were saying something different. I went back and reread what you said. I thought you were saying that they could use the newfound religion to help them w/getting out of jail (bail hearing, etc.). My bad....

But should we, as a society, punish their kids for that? If we don't provide for those children, who will?

Whatsoever you do for the least of mine, you do for me.

Nor should we condone it either and let the cycle continue. One would assume the kids would want to better themselves so they don't end up like their parents! My grandfather was an ironworker drank up a storm. My dad is one of the most anti alcohol people I know and their family never got any hand outs or anything "special". They were dirt poor and managed to survive somehow. It can be done, come from absolutely NOTHING and make something of yourself to have a better life for themselves and their family w/o all this gov't "assistance".

Yes, but in the event of some catastrophic event, such as earthquake, tornado, flood, hurricane, would you accept their help or would you refuse it based on your beliefs or lack thereof?

I guess nobody could answer this one!!! I think it is a great question!!!

I read about one lawsuit where a paroled drug or alcohol offender had his parole revoked because he did not complete the terms of the required substance abuse program he was in. Apparently, he was Catholic and the center was Protestant-based. He was told that his religion was witchcraft and that he should convert. When he refused to convert, they said he did not finish the program.

Alot of people here in VA must attend NA/AA which is faith based.

We must ask god to forgive us for our shortcomings... come on... and it is a required part of their parole.

If that was me i guess I'de be spending more time in prison!

And Defotoz- I understand all the posts about DC. It is wild up there, as here...

Well drug court calls me to testify today...gotta run!

Is there such a thing as faith-based prisons?

I just read something a month or so ago about areas in some prisons that inmates can get into by converting to Christianity, or being Chrisitan. They are more comfortable and have more privilages then the general population.

Nor should we condone it either and let the cycle continue. One would assume the kids would want to better themselves so they don't end up like their parents! My grandfather was an ironworker drank up a storm. My dad is one of the most anti alcohol people I know and their family never got any hand outs or anything "special". They were dirt poor and managed to survive somehow. It can be done, come from absolutely NOTHING and make something of yourself to have a better life for themselves and their family w/o all this gov't "assistance".

You have obviously not suffered from hunger - genuine, day in and day out hunger. There are children in this country who do. There are children in America who eat mayonaise sandwiches for dinner on a regular basis. Maybe it's because their parents traded the food stamps for booze. Maybe it's because $150.00 won't buy enough food to last all month. Or maybe it's just because no one cares about them.

If you have never visited a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen, I highly recommend it. Everyone should see the face of hopelessness first hand. And if you assume that Child Protective Services would not allow children to live like that, you would be wrong. I have never been to a shelter that had no children in residence. Imagine going to the pound, only with children instead of dogs.

· National Homeless Estimates: 700,000 per night(National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty, 1999).

· Thirty-one million Americans now live in hunger or on the edge of hunger. (State Government Responses to the Food Assistance Gap 2000, Third Annual Report and 50 State Survey, December 2000).

· One in five people in a soup kitchen line is a child (America's Second Harvest, Hunger 1997: The Faces & Facts).

· In 1999, approximately 12 million American children were hungry or at risk of hunger (United States Department of Agriculture, Household Food Security in the United States, Fall 2000).

· Families are the largest and fastest growing segment of the homeless population. In 2000, requests for emergency food assistance from families with children increased by 16% in American cities over the past year, the highest rate of increase since the recession of 1991 (U.S. Conference of Mayors, Hunger and Homelessness in America's Cities, December 2000).

· Nearly 1 in 5 children (more than 12 million) in the U.S. live in poverty (U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, October 2000 Update). The U.S. child poverty rate is higher than that of most other industrialized nations.

· In 1999, more than half of all food stamp recipients, 9.3 million people were children (Children's Defense Fund, Poverty Matters: The Cost of Child Poverty in America, 2000).

· Nearly 9 million children in the U.S. live in working poor families (Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, The Poverty Despite Work Handbook, 1999).

· Research indicates that 40% of homeless men have served in the armed forces, as compared to 34% of the general adult male population (Rosenheck, Robert, Homeless Veterans, in Homelessness in America, 1996).

· Recent research indicates that even mild under-nutrition experienced by young children during critical periods of growth may lead to reductions in physical growth and affect brain development (The Links Between Nutrition and Cognitive Development of Children, 1998, Tufts University School of Nutrition Science and Policy).

I guess nobody could answer this one!!! I think it is a great question!!!

I agree, Missy! I have the same feelings about organ donation. If you aren't willing to donate yours, don't you DARE ask for one in return - not for yourself, not for your child, your parents, or your spouse.

I agree, Missy! I have the same feelings about organ donation. If you aren't willing to donate yours, don't you DARE ask for one in return - not for yourself, not for your child, your parents, or your spouse.

Yep, that is why I have in BIG BOLD RED PRINT on my Driver's License DONOR.

Is it true though that they don't even go by that? Is it still the spouse or next of kins decision anyway?? That is what I've heard.

Alot of people here in VA must attend NA/AA which is faith based.

We must ask god to forgive us for our shortcomings... come on... and it is a required part of their parole.

If that was me i guess I'de be spending more time in prison!

AA/NA has a long history of success, though. And drug/alcohol abuse is a HUGE problem in this country.

Remember, too, that once convicted of a felony, you lose some of your constitutional rights FOREVER (the right to vote, hold public office, and the right to bear arms/own a gun), so why is it so important to protect this particular one (separation of church and state)?

Is it true though that they don't even go by that? Is it still the spouse or next of kins decision anyway?? That is what I've heard.

Yes, that's true - at least in Texas.

I'd just like to add that I am the grandmother of a 3 1/2 month old organ donor. Because my daughter (and my otherwise jerk SIL, but that's another story) agreed to donate their son's organs, four other children received the gift of life (or sight). The organ bank sent my daughter a medallion that says "Organ Donor". She had it set into Baby James' tombstone. It is her hope that everyone who sees it will be inspired to be an organ donor.

I didn't answer because it was asked to someone else. *shrug*

To answer it, would I accept the assistance... I don't know. I've been offered services before (not quite a declared emergency, but a really hairy situation) and at the time I denied. I can say I'd never eat a bug, but if I was truly starving, I'd probably be out looking for bugs. I'd never get in a truck with a creepy guy, but if it was that or get torn apart by the wolves chasing me... at some point your mammalian brain shuts down in favor of your reptilian brain. And FWIW, the organization I denied help from was one that I had contributed to.

Whether we like it or not, federal money is used for these organizations. So religious or not, and for the concept or not, we've all paid in to them. Wouldn't that justify your use of their services, even if you disagreed with the concept? If you pay in, even if it's against your wishes, are you a hypocrite for taking something in return?

Carlene let me ask you - purely just curiosity here - is it "ok" in the Catholic faith to be an organ donor? My mother is Catholic and I thought at one point she told me that it's not condoned, something about the body being whole/intact (as much as possible). I thought it was the same reason she didn't want to be cremated.

But this conversation took place years ago, and for all I know could have been about a different religion.

I'm a donor. And looks like I'll be donating my gallbladder to my surgeon's retirement fund in the near future.

Carlene let me ask you - purely just curiosity here - is it "ok" in the Catholic faith to be an organ donor? My mother is Catholic and I thought at one point she told me that it's not condoned, something about the body being whole/intact (as much as possible). I thought it was the same reason she didn't want to be cremated.

But this conversation took place years ago, and for all I know could have been about a different religion.

Years ago (pre-Vatican II) the Church frowned on cremation. Organ donation is a much more recent issue, however. My own parish encourages organ donation. The following is from the Red Cross web sight.

Catholics view organ donation as an act of charity, fraternal love and self sacrifice. Transplants are ethically and morally acceptable to the Vatican. Pope John Paul II in a recent statement said, "Those who believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave His life for the salvation of all, should recognize the urgent need for a ready availability of organs for transplants a challenge to their generosity and fraternal love." According to Father Leroy Wickowski, Director of the Office of Health Affairs of the Archdiocese of Chicago, "We encourage donation as an act of charity. It is something good that can result from tragedy and a way for families to find comfort by helping others. We do caution, however, that the organs are removed only after death and that people's wishes are respected."

As a long term member of Al Anon, I beg to differ. These programs are created around 'a power greater than yourself'. This does not have to be 'God'.

Thank you for clearing that up, Leatha. I have seen AA/NA/Al Anon work miracles, even for people who had absolutely zero religious beliefs, and that is no exaggeration. It is a very successful, worthwhile organization that does good with every dime it receives, whether from public or private funds.