I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

Up here in no man's land, North Dakota, (what I affectionately refer to as the "a$$hole of the world")

I love it here in ND. We can afford to live in the country here and have horses and pets and enjoy some peace and quiet, yet drive 10 miles in to town and shop at nearly every major store you can imagine. We have it all. OK so I will admit, winter was a little long and crazy this year.... but... I really like it here in ND.

Oh yeah, and my main reason for posting in this thread is to say that I have 6 kids. My husband and I work hard, have good insurance, don't rely on govt anything or welfare of any kind, we feed them well, we take good care of them, we homeschool even though our tax dollars go to the public school system and we have to pay for all our homeschool supplies out of our pockets...... we are not super religious bible thumping freaky people who drink blood or anything else (well, my husband does like his bourbon on occasion but who doesn't??). We are NORMAL people who wanted a big family. We used to believe we were QUIVERFULL minded but, I believe my quiver is FULL and I am done having kids. I associate with a lot of quiverfull folks because they, like me, have larger families and we talk about how to feed and care for our larger families and laundry and all sorts of large family issues. I must say that I don't know hardly any of them who rely on govt. for anything either (welfare or food stamps or anything like that). Anyhoo.... My children are healthy, happy, thriving, they have everything a kid could want including acres and acres of trees to climb, horses to ride, dogs and cats to love..... they have it all. We really do have it all. And we have worked hard for it all and no one has given us anything. So........ that's my thoughts on the topic.

From a mom of 6 kids

the baby of 6 kids

whose mom was one of 13 kids

and I love love love the family reunions when we get to see our 200+ cousins, it is such a blast.

RIGHT ON FLUFFY!~

affectionately, and purposefully....those of you deeming to dare to tell me what i can do with my womb and how many children i SHOULD or SHOULDNT have, can kiss my large round doughy world populating bottom. I would like to tell those presuming to do so, the following:

" iF I WANT to have fifteen children, i have every right in the universe to have them. if I DONT want to have them, terminating my pregnancy is my business as well. I dont tell you what to do with your uterus. DONT presume to tell me what to do with mine. "

thats what i would say to those who think they have some business in my genitals.

I would have to completely and fully agree with you Lizrbit. Your genitals, Your business. It's like I tell my husband...... No uterus, no opinion! HA!

We used to believe we were QUIVERFULL minded [...] I don't know hardly any of them who rely on govt. for anything either (welfare or food stamps or anything like that). [...] And we have worked hard for it all and no one has given us anything. So........ that's my thoughts on the topic.

The "quiverfull" reference was to a specific movement that stemmed from conservative protestantism, not to people with lots of kids, and it has nothing to do with reliance on or independence from government assistance. It's an attempt at raising an army for god, and to try and stave off what they call "race suicide" - the result of integrating non-white/European races into society. Overpopulation is part of their "goal", so to speak, (although they don't see it that way, they believe their god will provide for its people) because overpopulation with white people means statistically higher white:non-white ratios.

I have just read the above two posts and found them to be very interesting. I don't much about you, Fluffy, but it seems to me that the life that you, your husband and your kids lead is a healthy, interesting, peaceful and responsible one. I know that when I was a young kid I used to dream of living in the country with lots of animals around me. You and your family are evidently very happy and very successful and this is how life should be for all of us.

And lizrbit, it appears that your stand on individual reproductive rights approximates my own: it is up to the owner of the uterus to decide how she chooses to use it. It really is no one else's business.

And now the modern demographics on reproduction in the affluent west further indicate that environmental footprint left by those couples choosing to have large families is more than cancelled out by the couples who are choosing to only have one child or are opting out of having kids altogether.

It strikes me that there are two major groups of individuals who concern themselves in this business of other folks' reproductive activities. One of these groups is the right-to-lifers, a right-wing group whose membership is largely drawn from various Christian factions, and this gang would like to see women robbed of choice and thus over the control of their rights over their own bodies.

The second group of individuals, unlike the first, may be said to come from across the political spectrum; these are those individuals who are distressed by the numbers of women who are unable to care for their children by reason of drug addiction, alcoholism, poverty, poor physical or mental health, violent/unstable family relationships but persist in having them irregardless.

The right-to-life gang are anxious to see abortion made illegal. Many, but not all, of those individuals concerned with the issue of what they view as irresponsible fertility would like to see more of those women take advantage of abortion as an option.

I intended to include this in my prior post, but forget - and can't edit.

Quiverfull parents try to have upwards of six children. They home-school their families, attend fundamentalist churches and follow biblical guidelines of male headship--"Father knows best"--and female submissiveness. They refuse any attempt to regulate pregnancy. Quiverfull began with the publication of Rick and Jan Hess's 1989 book, A Full Quiver: Family Planning and the Lordship of Christ, which argues that God, as the "Great Physician" and sole "Birth Controller," opens and closes the womb on a case-by-case basis. Women's attempts to control their own bodies--the Lord's temple--are a seizure of divine power.

[...]

Population is a preoccupation for many Quiverfull believers, who trade statistics on the falling white birthrate in European countries like Germany and France. Every ethnic conflict becomes evidence for their worldview: Muslim riots in France, Latino immigration in California, Sharia law in Canada. The motivations aren't always racist, but the subtext of race suicide is there.

The "quiverfull" reference was to a specific movement that stemmed from conservative protestantism, not to people with lots of kids, and it has nothing to do with reliance on or independence from government assistance. It's an attempt at raising an army for god, and to try and stave off what they call "race suicide" - the result of integrating non-white/European races into society. Overpopulation is part of their "goal", so to speak, (although they don't see it that way, they believe their god will provide for its people) because overpopulation with white people means statistically higher white:non-white ratios.

Thanx, Wheetsin, for reminding us that the Quiverful movement was essentially racist. You may be interested to hear that Hitler instituted a like policy with the same racist intent. All healthy blonde attractive Aryan women of breedable age were expected to do their patriotic duty to their country by producing as many babies as possible.

Wheetsin

I know the movement and groups of people you're referring to. What I am saying is that there are others who consider themselves to be quiverfull but don't all believe in the same things... such as some quiverfull minded people believe they should have LOTS of kids, while others believe they should have however many they can have without the use of birth control OR fertility help which in some cases means NONE, or only few. Some are really really really religious and believe they're raising an army of God-fearing people to make the world a better place. Others are not nearly that religious and just believe they're having however many kids God intends them to have and they're just trying to raise them to be good people and that's the end of it. The spectrum of definitions for today's quiverfull people is really not nearly as cut and dry as many would think. Now, I didn't go into great detail in my post when I said that I used to believe that I was quiverfull minded.... but here is the rest of that story. I have my 6 kids and I believe that my quiver is full. I also needed fertility meds for 5 of my 6 kids. Now I am having a tubal ligation to ensure that I don't have any more. Because I believe I have my quiverfull. I don't believe that I need to physically continue to procreate as long as I physically can, I believe that God lets me know in his own ways that my quiver is full and it's okay for me to stop having children via permanent birth control or whatever. I also refused to believe that God meant for me to have NO children because I had to use fertility drugs to conceive the first 5 of them. I believe that God gave me the tools, the brain, the medical information, the doctors, etc. to make these decisions with his guideance. Keep in mind that the way I believe makes me somewhat of an outcast to other quiverfull minded people who have different definitions for the full quiver and how you get there. I don't think that people can make a judgment based on the term because each and every family is different and each and every couples quiverfull is defined a bit differently. It's sort of like religion in general. Some of us are Christians but really pretty darned normal and then others are Christians who quote the Bible every other sentence, condemn others and cast judgement on others, condemn make-up, hair cutting and pants on women, even the use of cars and modern day technology. There are varying degrees to all of it.

Thanx, Wheetsin, for reminding us that the Quiverful movement was essentially racist. You may be interested to hear that Hitler instituted a like policy with the same racist intent. All healthy blonde attractive Aryan women of breedable age were expected to do their patriotic duty to their country by producing as many babies as possible.

Yeah.... that's definitely the farthest thing from anything to do with what I consider to be quiverfull or even religious. I am so far away from anything like that... not racist. Not judgemental. Nothing like that.

Yeah.... that's definitely the farthest thing from anything to do with what I consider to be quiverfull or even religious. I am so far away from anything like that... not racist. Not judgemental. Nothing like that.

Cool, very cool.

Since this thread popped back up to the top, I will jump in and say "hi".

I still wish that everyone would learn more about the ecological footprint each child makes before deciding how many children to have. It seems that many don't think about it, or maybe they simply choose to ignore the burden that each child places on our resources.

Populating the earth should be done responsibly. It shouldn't be taken lightly.

I'm not saying I would ever dictate how many children someone can have, but I do wish people would take the time to learn a little bit about overpopulation and plan their lives accordingly.

All this talk of global warming and dwindling seafood, honeybees disappearing, upcoming Water shortages...

All of these issues are related to too many people on the earth placing too big of a burden on it.

For example, when I have children I would have no more than two biologically. If I want more I will adopt the rest. This is a conscious decision based on knowing the burden each individual places on the planet. I believe that if more people truly knew about their ecological footprint, they might come to the same conclusion.

So a woman should have complete control of her reproductive decisions as long as her "choice" isn't to have more kids than you deem appropriate? An incongruity exists there.

I have three children - I would love to have more. I also plan on adoption and my husband and I are currently going through the foster care process. I love children, I love being a mom and I certainly don't feel the need to apologize for it.

I don't think every woman needs to fulfill some biological imperative to reproduce - if you have the maternal instincts of a shark then leave the childbearing to women like me. Presumably you don't want your choice to remain childless to be criticized - neither do I want my choice to have children to be under the microscope.

So a woman should have complete control of her reproductive decisions as long as her "choice" isn't to have more kids than you deem appropriate? An incongruity exists there.

No, all I said was that I wished people would take time to be better educated, and then make their decision from there. It's just because people don't want to ever hear that their choices might be harmful or bad for the environment, or detrimental to society that everyone gets so offended at the suggestion of being educated. If someone truly learns about the ecological footprint that each child leaves, and reads about the environment and overpopulation's effect on it, and still chooses to have many children, then at least they made the effort to learn something and they made an educated decision.

But I highly doubt that the majority of people who have more than, say, four children really have taken the time to learn about the effects of that, long term.

I think most people breed without ever thinking about it the environmental impact at all.

I think most people just whatever the heck they feel like, and then get highly offended at anyone who even questions their decisions.

Sunta,

Though I disagree with some of the things you have to say I definitely think that your thoughts would make a great blog. It is interesting, and I am not offended... I don't really care what anyone thinks about what I am doing with my life. Seriously, I just don't go there. I always try to remember to examine the log in my own eye before I toss stones at anyone else. So I am pretty accepting of other people's opinions even if I don't share them. Anyhoo, back to the blog thing, I really think that you'd make an interesting blogger about this stuff and probably much more, from the sounds of what you have to say.

Mommy of 6

& would LOVE to adopt a bunch more someday

Older kids who are unwanted by others but would be loved by me and my family.... a dream.... perhaps someday will happen....

I recently read that one child's food intake over one year more than equals the lifetime footprint of a SUV but I do believe that this issue is complicated by a number of other factors.

One of these is that of the rights of woman over her uterus, that is to say a woman's right to choose. We cannot have it both ways; we cannot claim the right to opt out of having children and then demand that other women be denied the right to have children.

Another one of these factors is this: once the educational and economic status of societies is raised couples tend to opt out of having lots of children. The population replacement birthrate - we are not talking a growth birthrate - is now of grave concern in all western European countries as well as in Canada. The United States happens to be the only affluent industrialized country which is still maintaining a replacement birthrate. That is to say, you understand, that your birth rate equals your death rate.

In Canada we deal with our declining population by actively recruiting new Canadians from other parts of the world. We have gone multinational and we are very immigrant friendly. This is easy for us for we are a very, very young country and our roots and traditions are shallow and few.

Europe is in the way of anticipating a crisis, however. The countries which make up Europe are old countries with deep roots and a profound sense of what makes up countrymen. A declining population cannot easily be supplemented by importing a bunch of foreigners. And yet for a country to remain economically and culturally vibrant there must be more than a collection of senior citizens living within its borders.

All of the above is a longish way of saying that if some women want to mother a gang of kids and they have the emotional and financial resources, well, what's the big deal? There is room here for them.

The concern that I have with the official Quiverful policy on families is that it seems to be embedded in narrow racist and political values, not just in a simple desire to have an old-fashioned big family.