I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

Why not give them a crack @ it?

Because it crosses the line between separation of church and state. If you had to research them online you're probably not familiar with the full story. We aren't just talking about prisons that incorporate faith. Most prisons give people a way to recognize their faith. We're talking about deluxe accomodations, extra & "gourmet" meals (anything is gourmet compared to a mealloaf, I guess), extra visitation time, extra outdoor time, etc. for participating in the activities. If you refuse to attend or refuse to announce Christ as your savior, you're given many fewer priveledges than those who are willing to do it.

That people can receive these perks, funded by tax dollars (don't think for a minute that some generous person out there is paying to construct the nicer quarters, bring in the musicians, etc.) in exchange for religious "conversion" or rebirth (or whatever you want to call it) crosses the line of separation.

Can they do much worse than the system we have now?

Kind of depends on how you would define worse, actually. If you mean worse in humanitarian terms - sure it could get worse. Prison could actually be a punishment. But that would require huge, ginormous bumps in fundung because right now in just about any prison in the country, the inmates could take over at any point. Keeping them placated is pretty much the only thing that keeps us from reliving Attica on a daily basis.

Could it be worse in terms of people "milking" the system? Sure it could. What saves $$$ as it is - is general ignorance about what al they have at their fingertips. If they did, and just played a key few the right way, the average prisoner could get out with an average income of about $1300 per month, taxpayer bill. (Numbers are only accurate for State of MO, I don't know anything about other states but I'd guess they're similar).

Could it be worse in terms of working to prevent repeat crime? Well, that's not prison's goal, that's reform's goal. And the reform really is, in most cases, a separate beast. But if you want to make it a direct connection, see previous note on prisons actually being a punishment -- another area where I falter astray from the typical liberal ideals.

If some faith-based program in a prison has impressive numbers, then fine - go with it. BUT, don't use taxpayer $ to fund the bribery of people into religion.

(I've seen attition rates for these programs, but I'd also be curious to see the rates of people who remain "conformed" to the religion and maintained it longterm. Very hard to gather, but would still be interesting. 99% of the criminals out there are smart enough to realize that if they just say whatever it is they're supposed to say, and do whatever it is they're supposed to do, and from that they'll get all these perks... hell yeah they announce Christ as their savior. I'd wager you'd be hard pressed to find many who wouldn't, just to get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow).

The Salvation Army is notorious for their discriminatory hairing practices against other religions and gays. States are currently losing the battle when it comes to a lot of the faith-based substance abuse programs. In many cases, states have lost law suits because they were requiring prisoners to attend these non-secular programs as a condition of their parole. That is my problem with them. Prisoners should not be required to attend religious services.

So, they ask you what religion or sexual orientation are you on your app or in the interview? I thought that was illegal.

Most of the articles, I read said it wasn't forced religion. I really don't know much on the subj, just going by what I read. I don't know anyone that has been in a faith-based jail. The one guy that posted on the website that worked in the jail said it was not required.....

Because it crosses the line between separation of church and state. If you had to research them online you're probably not familiar with the full story. We aren't just talking about prisons that incorporate faith. Most prisons give people a way to recognize their faith. We're talking about deluxe accomodations, extra & "gourmet" meals (anything is gourmet compared to a mealloaf, I guess), extra visitation time, extra outdoor time, etc. for participating in the activities. If you refuse to attend or refuse to announce Christ as your savior, you're given many fewer priveledges than those who are willing to do it.

That people can receive these perks, funded by tax dollars (don't think for a minute that some generous person out there is paying to construct the nicer quarters, bring in the musicians, etc.) in exchange for religious "conversion" or rebirth (or whatever you want to call it) crosses the line of separation.

Well of course that isn't right...I haven't had any personal connection w/these faith-based jails or inmates, so I can't say much.....

What I can say about prisons in general is that people get all sorts of preferential treatment for different things. What should we do about these prisons? Should we get rid of them? I can speak more on them since I have people that have been in prisons that weren't faith-based....

You are correct though, I didn't know much about them until I looked it up online. I do know how regular prisons work though.

hell yeah they announce Christ as their savior. I'd wager you'd be hard pressed to find many who wouldn't, just to get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow).

So, are you saying that could get them out of jail? We still have to abide by the law right...And criminals in regular jails can say the same thing. What's the difference? I don't think any laws have been changed. Speaking of laws, I think people should put more energy into changing laws......

What I can say about prisons in general is that people get all sorts of preferential treatment for different things.

I think you're misunderstanding the issue I have. The issue is not "some prisoners get better treatment than others". Good behavior has always bought favors. Hell, it's one of the token currencies in prison systems. My problem is specifically the crossing of the separation between church and state. As far as I'm concerned, if someone gets more mashed potatoes because they did a good job cleaning toilets, good for them. When someone gets more mashed potatoes because they were willing to stand up in front of their peers an announce Christ as their savior, in a facility paid for by tax dollars, that's not cool with me.

So, are you saying that could get them out of jail?

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. I don't think we're on the same wavelength. What I said was I would be curious to see the numbers.

We still have to abide by the law right...And criminals in regular jails can say the same thing.

How can they say the same thing? They're in jail.

I think you're misunderstanding the issue I have. The issue is not "some prisoners get better treatment than others". Good behavior has always bought favors. Hell, it's one of the token currencies in prison systems. My problem is specifically the crossing of the separation between church and state. As far as I'm concerned, if someone gets more mashed potatoes because they did a good job cleaning toilets, good for them. When someone gets more mashed potatoes because they were willing to stand up in front of their peers an announce Christ as their savior, in a facility paid for by tax dollars, that's not cool with me.

You miss understood me...I'm not referring to good behavior or positive reinforcement. I am referring to the corruption that goes on in prisons..

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. I don't think we're on the same wavelength. What I said was I would be curious to see the numbers.

Maybe I am a conspiracy theorist....I don't really trust a bunch of #s, especially on stuff like this...How can you really come up w/#s on something like that? If someone gets out of jail and does good and you primarily say that religion did or did not play a major role in that. What are they going to do give the prisoners surveys when they are released? Either way, people are going to gravitate to one side or the other. I guess the prisoners, workers, etc would know the best.....

How can they say the same thing? They're in jail.

I was referring to the fact that you said these prisoners can say that they are saved and Jesus Christ is their Savior. How is this any different from people that are in regular prisons? Yes, they are all in prisons.

How can you really come up w/#s on something like that?

Believe I said "Very hard to gather, but would still be interesting." I made the statement as a reflection of my personal curiosity, conversationally, and not as part of an ongoing debate.

I was referring to the fact that you said these prisoners can say that they are saved and Jesus Christ is their Savior. How is this any different from people that are in regular prisons? Yes, they are all in prisons.

Sorry, I'm not following.

"So, are you saying that could get them out of jail? We still have to abide by the law right...And criminals in regular jails can say the same thing. What's the difference? I don't think any laws have been changed. Speaking of laws, I think people should put more energy into changing laws......"

If you're referring to the religious proferring, no - that does not get them out of jail. And no, I did not say that. So I'm not sure what difference you're referring to. And I don't think I claimed that any laws were changed (?) Sorry, normally I can follow along pretty well, but I'm completely lost.

So, they ask you what religion or sexual orientation are you on your app or in the interview? I thought that was illegal.

That's the thing. They can legally discriminate and STILL get federal and state funding just because they are faith-based organizations, which shouldn't happen, IMO. To me, they should make the decision (or the government should make it for them) to either follow their doctrine and discriminate OR accept goverment funding, not both. I have no problem with fully private organizations discriminating (I don't like it, but it's legal), but it is entirely different when they are accepting federal or state funding.

I read about one lawsuit where a paroled drug or alcohol offender had his parole revoked because he did not complete the terms of the required substance abuse program he was in. Apparently, he was Catholic and the center was Protestant-based. He was told that his religion was witchcraft and that he should convert. When he refused to convert, they said he did not finish the program.