Health Care

[BJean 16]

I am never against a hand up, and I am glad that the government is there to help those who need it. I was one of them at one time in my life. The problem is that it is TOO much now. The government has grown increasingly powerful and intrusive as well as financially indebted. We are talking about a debt of close to $170,000. per household. That is unsustainable! Cleo's often portrays me as one who doesn't want to help the poor or the elderly because I am against government handouts. This is not true. Some government help is fine. But, where we are at today with "so called" help is a farce. Obama himself admits his goals straight forward. He wants to redistribute the wealth around. Some who live in an apartment and rent and live paycheck to paycheck and are just getting by are not happy with that. I wouldn't be either. I lived that way once. We were at the bottom, but we (or anyone else) didn't have to stay there. We worked real hard, counted and saved every penny, sacrificed alot of 'wants' and even 'needs' to save for a multifamily house. I could never afford to pay a mortgage without rental income to help, so we sacrificed and lived with people over us, but, we still owned our own home, and we were proud of it. I saved for school and my husband worked long, hard hours and we eventually were able to buy a second multi family home right next door to ours, and now that's almost paid off as well. Our retirement should be okay due to the rental property and our 401K's and savings we pay into, even if SS is not there for us in 15 years. Some people start off sacrificing everything they have to start their businesses and then build up for themselves a great company and deserve to have their big expensive homes and be able to purchase things like HI and Life ins. and fancy cars or whatever they feel like buying. Obama feels that if you are rich, then you need to give some of that to those who are not. And, if you are poor, the government will make sure that you are cared for by coersion and thievery from those who are rich. This is sooooo wrong. Even if you feel that rich people should not be selfish or that rich people should 'share'. It's no ones place to tell anyone (rich or poor) what to do with their money that they worked hard to get. I am not rich by any means. I am comfortable and content, I guess. But I wasn't always. I know how it is to be both very poor and financially secure. I am not against paying taxes at all. I understand the need for them.

Waterbury, CT is a big city in my state. That city is in so much debt. Their property taxes are already the highest in the state, but now they need to raise them because they have a budget crisis that they can't find the funds for. This will cost on average another $2000. a year for homeowners there. They can't find the funds? How about cutting some of the big spending and doing some state layoffs or getting rid of the humongus pensions that those who retired recieve? It's always bleed the citizens dry! Never cut the spending! Did you ever hear of a government program that ended? I haven't. Obama has no right to redistribute the funds.

Very interesting. You admitted on an earlier post that you accepted some government assistance at some point. Perhaps that assistance actually helped you get to the point where you could own your home. Ever think of that?

And as for your 401k and working hard and all that, our 401k took a nose dive because of the greedy maneuverings on Wall Street and we now have about half of what we started with. I wish we had 15 more years to amass some to replace it but unfortuantely we are of retirement age and we're screwed!

Your little corner of the world is all wonderful for you but for many of us, things aren't nearly so peachy keen.

And it is absolutely correct for everyone to pay their fair share - even the very wealthy, my dear - if they are going to reap the benefits of being an American. That means that they can walk down the street without being accosted by beggars and without having starving people show up on their doorstep begging for a few scraps of food like they do in some countries around the world. The wealthy don't get to choose when or how much they want to pay anymore than the middle class does. We all enjoy the benefits of what our tax dollars provide for us - a beautiful and safe way of life in America.

Anyone who believes that rich folks should get away with the tax structure that the Republicans have provided for them, must be pretty darned well off too or they should wake up and smell the coffee and forget all about the tea that's leading them down the merry path of ignorance.

[pattygreen 5]

Whats a multi-family house? Do you live with other families?

We own a multi family home. 3 Apartments in one house. I live on the first floor and rent the 2nd and 3rd to tenants.

[pattygreen 5]

Very interesting. You admitted on an earlier post that you accepted some government assistance at some point. Perhaps that assistance actually helped you get to the point where you could own your home. Ever think of that?

Back in 1980, you were made to REpay your welfare back to the state. My husband and I did that. I was on welfare for almost 2 years when I was 19 and got pregnant. So, no, it didn't help me get to where I am 30 years later.

[BJean 16]

So you'd have been better off without it?

[pattygreen 5]

So you'd have been better off without it?

Thinking back to that time in my life, I can see that I would have survived without the welfare help. What would I have done if the state didn't offer me that help? Well, I would not have quit my job, for one. I remember choosing, at 3 months pregnant, to go on welfare because it was there for me. My sister in law informed me about welfare when I told her I was pregnant. She said that pregnant girls can get on very easily if they didn't have a job, so I quit my job, found low income housing projects and moved there. Or I could have moved in with any member of my family. Or the father of my child, who is my husband now, could have married me 2 years earlier than he did and we could have avoided the assistance thing altogether.

All I know is that if the welfare was NOT there for people to use, they would find a way to get by. The would HAVE to be independent. Oh, that dirty word that liberals hate! If the government didn't provide the formula through the WIC program for my first son, I would have quit smoking cigarettes so I could afford the formula for him. I would have been forced to make a choice. My cigs or the baby formula. Thinking back, I was getting welfare, yet I could afford cigarettes and I could afford to be on the bowling team, and other things that I did for entertainment. I had a car and paid insurance on it, yet no job to use it to get to. It wasn't right. I never gave it a thought back then that I was actually spending other peoples hard earned money, because I didn't equate the two.

[BJean 16]

Thinking back to that time in my life, I can see that I would have survived without the welfare help. What would I have done if the state didn't offer me that help? Well, I would not have quit my job, for one. I remember choosing, at 3 months pregnant, to go on welfare because it was there for me. My sister in law informed me about welfare when I told her I was pregnant. She said that pregnant girls can get on very easily if they didn't have a job, so I quit my job, found low income housing projects and moved there. Or I could have moved in with any member of my family. Or the father of my child, who is my husband now, could have married me 2 years earlier than he did and we could have avoided the assistance thing altogether.

All I know is that if the welfare was NOT there for people to use, they would find a way to get by. The would HAVE to be independent. Oh, that dirty word that liberals hate! If the government didn't provide the formula through the WIC program for my first son, I would have quit smoking cigarettes so I could afford the formula for him. I would have been forced to make a choice. My cigs or the baby formula. Thinking back, I was getting welfare, yet I could afford cigarettes and I could afford to be on the bowling team, and other things that I did for entertainment. I had a car and paid insurance on it, yet no job to use it to get to. It wasn't right. I never gave it a thought back then that I was actually spending other peoples hard earned money, because I didn't equate the two.

You probably can't imagine what this one post reveals about who you are.

It explains why you think people can't be good and if they're a born again why they don't need to even try. It explains why you would turn someone away from a food bank just because they're smoking a cigarette. It explains why you hate the government... you hate the fact that you took assistance when you knew you really were capable of taking care of yourself and you think that everyone who gets help from the government is just like you. And you think the government is wrong for taking your tax dollars to help someone like you, who didn't really need it.

A person often turns to religion to be able to live with all the things that they've done and continue to do that makes them desperately need the extreme fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. They need it so that they can be assured of God's forgiveness and his promise of a grand life hereafter in heaven.

patty, there is more to be had here on earth than what you've resigned yourself to. There is better. You can get the peace and love and happiness that you so desperately need. But true peace comes from within yourself not from the outside. Not from what others have taught you about sin and heaven, not even what the Bible tells you. It's bigger than all that. You just have to stop being so tied up in such a neat little package of religion that you closed off to something much bigger. And I'm not saying you have to give up your religion - not at all. You just have to understand that you personally are better than what you think you are. And you need to understand that other people are capable of goodness without any religion at all. YOU are capable of goodness. YOU are capable of not committing the acts that you must ask God forgiveness for. YOU are the answer to so many of the things that you're struggling with. It's within you.

I only hope that one day you can find the kind of love and peace that you are capable of feeling. It would be wonderful indeed if you could go through what you have left of your life in harmony with others, extending unconditional love and the emotional rewards that it would give you.

[pattygreen 5]

You probably can't imagine what this one post reveals about who you are.

It explains why you think people can't be good and if they're a born again why they don't need to even try.

Wrong. I think people can't be good because God said so, not me. I believe what he says.

It explains why you would turn someone away from a food bank just because they're smoking a cigarette.

Wrong again. I just believe that if someone can afford to buy cigs at $7. a day, then they can afford to buy bread.< /span>

It explains why you hate the government...

wrong once more. I don't hate the government. I hate what they do. They steal from people and give it to whomevr or whatever they deem necessary.

you hate the fact that you took assistance when you knew you really were capable of taking care of yourself and you think that everyone who gets help from the government is just like you. And you think the government is wrong for taking your tax dollars to help someone like you, who didn't really need it.

Wrong again, Bjean. I don't hate the fact that I took assistance. I knew full well when I took it that it was a loan, until I could repay it. They don't do that any more. Now they give it to you and never ask you to repay it. They do not make people personally responsible any more, they make them dependent!

A person often turns to religion to be able to live with all the things that they've done and continue to do that makes them desperately need the extreme fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. They need it so that they can be assured of God's forgiveness and his promise of a grand life hereafter in heaven.

Maybe some do, but that's not why I turned to God. I was a pretty good person before I found Jesus and always felt that my lifestyle and good deeds would be enough for God to let me go to Heaven some day.

patty, there is more to be had here on earth than what you've resigned yourself to. There is better. You can get the peace and love and happiness that you so desperately need.

You have a nerve to assume that I am desperate for all the things that I have already.

But true peace comes from within yourself not from the outside. Not from what others have taught you about sin and heaven, not even what the Bible tells you. It's bigger than all that. You just have to stop being so tied up in such a neat little package of religion that you closed off to something much bigger. And I'm not saying you have to give up your religion - not at all. You just have to understand that you personally are better than what you think you are. And you need to understand that other people are capable of goodness without any religion at all. YOU are capable of goodness. YOU are capable of not committing the acts that you must ask God forgiveness for. YOU are the answer to so many of the things that you're struggling with. It's within you.

I only hope that one day you can find the kind of love and peace that you are capable of feeling. It would be wonderful indeed if you could go through what you have left of your life in harmony with others, extending unconditional love and the emotional rewards that it would give you.

Reading your last 2 paragraphs shows me that you are believing that all you need in life is within yourself. How sad. Because that's not all you need in life. God says that in the end times man will look to himself for peace. They will be a 'god' unto themselves. They will deny Jesus and his sacrifice for them and thus perish from God's presence in eternity. If you rely on yourself to get you there, you will not make it.

[pattygreen 5]

Thinking back to that time in my life, I can see that I would have survived without the welfare help. What would I have done if the state didn't offer me that help? Well, I would not have quit my job, for one. I remember choosing, at 3 months pregnant, to go on welfare because it was there for me. My sister in law informed me about welfare when I told her I was pregnant. She said that pregnant girls can get on very easily if they didn't have a job, so I quit my job, found low income housing projects and moved there. Or I could have moved in with any member of my family. Or the father of my child, who is my husband now, could have married me 2 years earlier than he did and we could have avoided the assistance thing altogether.

All I know is that if the welfare was NOT there for people to use, they would find a way to get by. The would HAVE to be independent. Oh, that dirty word that liberals hate! If the government didn't provide the formula through the WIC program for my first son, I would have quit smoking cigarettes so I could afford the formula for him. I would have been forced to make a choice. My cigs or the baby formula. Thinking back, I was getting welfare, yet I could afford cigarettes and I could afford to be on the bowling team, and other things that I did for entertainment. I had a car and paid insurance on it, yet no job to use it to get to. It wasn't right. I never gave it a thought back then that I was actually spending other peoples hard earned money, because I didn't equate the two.

This post was written to show you that welfare is an uneccessary government expenditure at times. Oh, I agree that welfare helps the poor, and I am okay with SOME welfare, but too many people abuse it. I used welfare 30 years ago, and abused it. ( I was one of the only few who paid it back, but still, that doesn't happen any more) I can name many people who are abusing gov. funds right now. (from welfare, to unemployment, to housing assistance, etc)

The government wastes money! that was my point.

[BJean 16]

Reading your last 2 paragraphs shows me that you are believing that all you need in life is within yourself. How sad. Because that's not all you need in life. God says that in the end times man will look to himself for peace. They will be a 'god' unto themselves. They will deny Jesus and his sacrifice for them and thus perish from God's presence in eternity. If you rely on yourself to get you there, you will not make it.

I'm not surprised that you don't understand. I am not saying that you need to give up your relationship with God. I am saying that you do need to look within yourself to be able to find goodness, unconditional love and forgiveness and to not judge others.

By your own posts, you do not have any of those things through reading the Bible and heeding God's word. Think of the Bible as a map. What you need to learn is that you're reading it upside down.

If someone, like me, points out what you have been saying in your posts, you deny those things and you use God as proof that you're something different from what your posts indicate that you are. But I've been reading what you believe over and over and over and over and those posts have been quite consistent.

We are not put here to find God, read the Bible, be born again, and go about sinning because that's what God tells us that we are - sinners - and then die and go to heaven.

If I am wrong I have nothing to lose, if you're wrong you lose everything.

[pattygreen 5]

I'm not surprised that you don't understand. I am not saying that you need to give up your relationship with God. I am saying that you do need to look within yourself to be able to find goodness, unconditional love and forgiveness and to not judge others.

Already done that. found it by finding God. Only thing is I didn't have to look within myself, He was surrounding me all the time. Once I found God, His Holy Spirit came within me.

By your own posts, you do not have any of those things through reading the Bible and heeding God's word. Think of the Bible as a map. What you need to learn is that you're reading it upside down.

Wrong. I'm reading it right.

If someone, like me, points out what you have been saying in your posts, you deny those things and you use God as proof that you're something different from what your posts indicate that you are. But I've been reading what you believe over and over and over and over and those posts have been quite consistent.

What you've read is who I am. A born again, God loving Christian. One who is not ashamed of the gospel and all that they contain.

We are not put here to find God, read the Bible, be born again, and go about sinning because that's what God tells us that we are - sinners - and then die and go to heaven.

We are put here to worship God. And after finding God to share His love and the truth about Him with those who have not found Him yet. He created us for that reason. He wants our love returned to him. He created us to be his family. Yes. If you fail to find God amidst all that is around you, you have wasted this life, for that is God's hope in us, that we will recognize our need for His Son, Jesus and be Born spiritually so that we can live forever in Heaven when this physical body decays.

If I am wrong I have nothing to lose, if you're wrong you lose everything.

...........................................................................

[pattygreen 5]

I rejected the idea of a social guarantee of health care. The rights guaranteed in America's founding ideals affirm "your right to own property, not necessarily the right or a guarantee to a specific item, to a specific service, like health care, or a to a specific piece of land. Rather, the underlying principle and the ideal is that if we choose, when we choose, we can choose to strive for as little or as much as we want, and once we acquire that property, nobody can take it away from us. That's a radical idea, that what I provide belongs to me, not to the king, but it belongs to me. Health care is NOT a 'right'.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I rejected the idea of a social guarantee of health care. The rights guaranteed in America's founding ideals affirm "your right to own property, not necessarily the right or a guarantee to a specific item, to a specific service, like health care, or a to a specific piece of land. Rather, the underlying principle and the ideal is that if we choose, when we choose, we can choose to strive for as little or as much as we want, and once we acquire that property, nobody can take it away from us. That's a radical idea, that what I provide belongs to me, not to the king, but it belongs to me. Health care is NOT a 'right'.

Let's be clear as to whom this quote came from: Yes, folks, none other than that wacko michelle bachman

In other topics, Bachmann thoroughly rejected the idea of a social guarantee of health care, saying that the rights guaranteed in America's founding ideals affirm "your right to own property, not necessarily the right or a guarantee to a specific item, to a specific service, like health care, or a to a specific piece of land. Rather, the underlying principle and the ideal is that if we choose, when we choose, we can choose to strive for as little or as much as we want, and once we acquire that property, nobody can take it away from us. That's a radical idea, that what I provide belongs to me, not to the king, but it belongs to me. "

This nut job has zero credibility. Beyond the gullible, stupid or just plain anti-Obama zealots, does anyone take this woman seriously? :Dancing_biggrin:

[BJean 16]

Yes, patty seems to take her seriously.

Have you ever met such self-serving, selfish, idiots? They're disgusting to be around. Everything is all about them and their welfare. The rest of the country be damned. Me, me, me, me, me. They'd make great Halliburton CEOs or Oil company executives. In fact, let's face it, these nutheads are those guys' champions. Now Michelle Bachmann I can understand. She stands to profit from her pontificating puke. But patty? Just a sheep being led to the slaughter.

[pattygreen 5]

Let's be clear as to whom this quote came from: Yes, folks, none other than that wacko michelle bachman

In other topics, Bachmann thoroughly rejected the idea of a social guarantee of health care, saying that the rights guaranteed in America's founding ideals affirm "your right to own property, not necessarily the right or a guarantee to a specific item, to a specific service, like health care, or a to a specific piece of land. Rather, the underlying principle and the ideal is that if we choose, when we choose, we can choose to strive for as little or as much as we want, and once we acquire that property, nobody can take it away from us. That's a radical idea, that what I provide belongs to me, not to the king, but it belongs to me. "

This nut job has zero credibility. Beyond the gullible, stupid or just plain anti-Obama zealots, does anyone take this woman seriously? :thumbup:

I happen to think she's great! I agree with her line of thinking and at no time have I heard her speak where I didn't agree with what she had to say. She is intelligent and well informed. She has a good head on her shoulders.

[LeighaMason 19]

I happen to think she's great! I agree with her line of thinking and at no time have I heard her speak where I didn't agree with what she had to say. She is intelligent and well informed. She has a good head on her shoulders.

Of course you do, that is the biggest difference between a republican and a democrat. Republicans agree with everything they are told. Democrats listen to what they are told, think about it and then agree or disagree.