You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

Sweethot, where do you arrive at this notion that the abortion rate is close to zero for married women? And why do you assume that abortion is casually and carelessly used as a form of birth control? Please provide statistics.

It is my understanding that abortion has always been used as a solution from those days when it was illegal by families who were poor and who found that their finances were stretched to the breaking point. The discovery that there was going to be yet another baby posed an appalling problem for these families.

You certainly have made a wise observation when you note that Oprah's insistance that all girls and women must be educated is correct. It is crucial that all of us must be allowed to be educated, to have access to all the tools and skills available for this knowledge is our birthrite. It is true that educated women (and men) are much less likely to react in a purely emotional fashion and will be much more thoughtful and more communally oriented in their behaviour. Well-educated people will inevitably be more alert and more sensitive to their social environment. This is because they will have both the tools which they need in order to decode this and they will also feel much more feel much more confident about themselves because they do have a sense of understanding the mechanics of our environment. In short, these are not the kind of cats who are going to end up mugging you, eh.

And it is certain that smart girls will make a point of finding themselves fully informed about birth control techniques. This is a good thing. Teaching sexual abstinence without providing the back-up info of birth control has, frankly speaking, proven itself to be something in the way of an idiotic move.

It seems that it is the Bible Belt folk who have supported this abstinence approach when it comes to dealing with teenage sexuality and it seems that it is these same folk who have been dealing with this problem of juvenile pregnancies and a raft of bluddy infants.

It is at this point that Green, an atheist, will point out that kids were in those fun-filled Biblical days married and reproducing while they were still in their early to mid-teens.

I trust you are now getting what I am drifting towards, eh. For those of you who are Bible worshippers and yet who wish your kids to follow a modernist sexual time table, well, you can teach 'em about abstinence but ya better fill 'em in on the practicalities on birth control techniques in case your very nice kids happen to slip. And people will sometimes slip. This is the nature of the human beast. Life sure is complicated. I am very touched, sweethot, by your willingness to further engage in this issue. I think that this is very cool.

And I continue to enjoy my discussions with Gadget, a woman who graciously accepts that I am her exact polar opposite, and yet is cool with it. This discussion, one which could so easily lead to toxic attacks on a personal level, has always remained free of this. This is pretty cool, don't you think?

ok, oops, I can't find where i read that the abortion rate was almost nothing for married woman, but i did find this site where it says that 7% of married womans pregnancies ended in abortion in 1999 and unmarried where 4x higher and most likely to end in abortion. that was 9 years ago, so things have changed i'm sure. The point is that when a child in conceived within wedlock the chances of it being discarded or killed are far less then when not.

The reasons for these millions of abortions are not always health, of the mother or baby. Most of them from reading statistics seems to be because of money, or a baby just not fitting into their lifestyle. That in a way is using abortion as birthcontrol. OOps I made a bad choice to have unprotected sex and I'm pregnant, I'm scared! How can i make this mistake go away? Abortion.

yes, it is nice that this debate is not a hateful name calling fest! Everyone is very respectful. I stopped posting only because i said what i believed and had no more to say, but then I read lori's post and it got me thinking so i posted again. Sorry the the i's My shift sticks and its a pain to capitalize i's! I know annoying.

You can't be pro-choice only in cases of danger -- the whole point is you need to protect a woman's RIGHT to do what she needs to with her body, because once you start placing limits on it, that's when the unjust restrictions start.

I have written many a thesis on this subject and don't view it as opinion -- it is basic human right, and though it has no place in the political spectrum, unfortunately we need the Constitution on our side so that our rights can be protected.

Everyone may be entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to control over another's body and health and life.

Everyone may be entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to control over another's body and health and life.

In the case of abortion, the body and health and life of two people are involved.

lori in cali: Terrific post and completely to the point. I've been off-line for a while and it was so gratifying to come back today and read such an informed, intelligent addition to this thread!

Some people really should take more time to read your post in-depth and think very hard about it. I have a feeling that some may have decided they didn't like the tone of it and so did not give it their full attention. I've been guilty of that when I disagreed with the initial premise of a post but have found that if I spend as much time reading those I do not agree with as I do on those I do agree with, I learn so much from the people who participate here.

I know some people are not open to consider any other viewpoints than their own and that is understandable with such an important issue. But I believe that most of the pro-choice people feel that this is a very cut and dried issue - the government should not have the power over it's citizens as the overturning of Roe v. Wade would ultimately provide.

But make no mistake about it - that's exactly what some Americans are wanting for this country. And lori makes it abundantly clear why that is so grossly unjust for everyone.

I have a hard time understanding why anti-abortion people don't get that giving the government that power over its' people is extremely dangerous. Like I've mentioned many times on this thread, no one should be legally compelled to HAVE AN ABORTION or NOT HAVE AN ABORTION. If you allow the government to legally prevent abortions, they may decide to compel people to have abortions if "they" deem it appropriate one day. As I said, lori makes that argument perfectly.

To say that the government should be in the business of saving lives by compelling women to have babies is absolutely passion-provolking, but absolutely so very wrong.

BJean, I having been missing you!

green, I've been missing you too! We've been on the Holiday entertaining bandwagon and I'm just beginning to get my head back above water.

The point is that when a child in conceived within wedlock the chances of it being discarded or killed are far less then when not.

Interestingly, this is not true worldwide. In Eastern European countries married women get 4X the number of abortions compared to unmarried women. I'm sure there are cultural reasons for that (family size, less cultural stigma), but the number one reason is relative lack of access to more effective pre-emptive birth control methods, like the pill, IUD, so-called morning after pill, perhaps even condoms?

My argument is that if sexually active women, regardless of age, have better access to free or very low-cost birth control the abortion rate will decrease. In several Western European countries where early sexual education and access to free birth control has become universal the abortion rate approaches 10% without a significant increase in the number of young people choosing to have sex before marriage, something I don't personally have a bias against, personally - I think late marriage should not keep people from experiencing mutually satisfactory sexual relationships.

The reality is that abortion will never be entirely eliminated, legal or not; it's a simple procedure that can be done with a minimal amount of training. Until there is an entirely foolproof way (reversible anti-pregnancy injection at puberty?) for women to be sexually active without experiencing an unwanted pregnancy, there will be abortion. I wish that both sides could unite in the goal of decreasing the number of abortions. Since no pro-choice supporter I know is "pro-abortion", it's a goal many of my colleagues would get behind. Unfortunately, I'm sure the two sides would still disagree about the best way to accomplish that goal...

Gadgetlady -- the fetus is a fetus... it's the woman's body and her choice.

To reply to what sweethot said (what alyson just replied to) - that's ignorance right there, it isn't true.

Gadgetlady -- the fetus is a fetus... it's the woman's body and her choice.

Fetus is a definition of a stage of being. Just like infant, toddler, adolescent, and elderly. It is a continuum of life. Calling the unborn baby a "fetus" allows you to disassociate but it doesn't change reality. The baby is NOT the woman's body, unless she has two heads, two brains, four arms, four legs, and if she's carrying a male baby, a penis -- and two sets of separate DNA and two separate circulatory systems.

I've read this thread in it's entirety. I leave for a few days and come back, debating to engage or comment. As someone who has had an abortion at the age of 20, I hope it's the hardest decision one has to make - yet pray it remains a right for women for years to come.

I get both sides, truly I do, My *choice* left me sterile - I can never have a child. I live with my decision every day, and though I still believe it was the right decision for me 18 yrs ago, it does sadden me - my decision cost me the ability to have a family outside of my husband and myself. I am the only daughter amongst many boys, only grandaughter - and the only one of my friends that does not have children. Not to say my life is incomplete, I have a lifestyle that some of my "multiple children" friends envy at times.

I really don't need to belabour my story so much, as I realize the deep routed feelings on this subject. I believe I have to answer for this decision & live with always the "what if" factor. I just recently told my mother & she commented that she had known all along, and knew I had made the right decision for me at the time.

As a "Catholic Lite" person (Episcopal), who did confess my sin - I Hope with all hope that the right to choose remains...I get ya'll on the other side of this debate...I really do.

Lu

My *choice* left me sterile - I can never have a child.

vs.

it's a simple procedure that can be done with a minimal amount of training.

Interestingly, luluc's situation is not unique. Complications, minor to major (including death) happen regularly with "safe and legal" abortions.

After having dinner this evening w/DH, Bro & Sis In law - I realized that I threw out "sin". This is MY sin, and my sin only - not to be confused with any religious / political ties or opionions..it's just my own. I still work thru my Catholic/Jewish upbringing which will provide me a lifetime times 10 of guilt - thus the "Catholic Lite".

After having dinner this evening w/DH, Bro & Sis In law - I realized that I threw out "sin". This is MY sin, and my sin only - not to be confused with any religious / political ties or opionions..it's just my own.

Curious here -- why do you consider it a sin?

Curious here -- why do you consider it a sin?

Because I believe it "was" a life, not just a fetus & something I can never shake. That's just me, my gut of sin - I have nothing more to explain it in words. As I mentioned earlier, I HOPE it's the hardest decision one makes. To go down the road why I feel it should remain legal, for me, is simple - I don't want law dictating what I can / can not do with my body.

I've read all the posts, and realize I contradict myself & my position in many eyes on many fronts .... The net result was I made a decision, it impacted me profoundly, and from where I come from God is forgiving.

Not sure I explained myself completely... yikes~

Lulu