Is is just me, or does this title fit a good portion of the people that post in the Rant & Raves? Personally, I am a Heterosexual Conservative, God-fearing Christian, but to each their own. Before you get all froggy & jump, I have many friends from all walks of life & that includes homosexual liberal.....well, I don't know any atheists.

Basically, I just wanted a reason to post this pic. Ya'll can Rant & Rave about it. Have fun & I'll enjoy reading.

If we are going to talk about the faults of any human, it is more important to also look for the good in people. I agree that there have been some Christian leaders that fell, and fell hard. As was pointed out, there are people from every group and all walks of life that fall short and embarrass themselves, their families and others. I can tell you that there are far more positive examples of Christian living and blameless Christian leaders than there are bad.

Thank God that there are more good than bad in any group. To focus only on the poor examples and not look around to see the abundant, shining examples is irresponsible, and prejudice. I believe that is what we all want and need.

Great post. Thank you for so eloquently pointing out what I failed miserably at getting across. :clap2:

I understood you perfectly. I feel that we all are a little misunderstood around here sometimes. It is always easy to point out the faults of others and miss our own. God bless you!

We talked about this after church today. I said to my minister that when I was a child, I went to my grandparent's Pentecostal church quite often and they were the among the first to welcome minorities and to help the poor.

Today's Christian leadership is pro-war, pro-death penalty, pro-big business, pro-government. That is not the Pentecostal church that I was raised in.

We talked about this after church today. I said to my minister that when I was a child, I went to my grandparent's Pentecostal church quite often and they were the among the first to welcome minorities and to help the poor.

Today's Christian leadership is pro-war, pro-death penalty, pro-big business, pro-government. That is not the Pentecostal church that I was raised in.

That is every church anymore. :eek: Makes it hard to take my children when the principles are missing.

That is every church anymore. :eek: Makes it hard to take my children when the principles are missing.

Then when are the believers in Jesus going to take back their church from the politicians masking themselves as "men of God".

If Christians realized the dirty politics needed to rise to Jerry Falwell's or Pat Robertson's or James Dobson's positions, they would know that no one who has risen that high is truly a man in Christ's mold. They will tell you that it was God's wish that they moved to the top, but it was back-stabbing and treachery that made them what they are today, leaders who speak for their flock and just like real shepherds, they intend to lead their flock to slaughter.

The gimmick mortgages are starting to bite the borrowers in the butt and foreclosures are going to double this year and be even higher next year. Selling homes will reach epidemic proportions.

I missed 4 days here and don't even recognize this thread anymore. That's so cool. :biggrin1:

The gimmick mortgages are starting to bite the borrowers in the butt and foreclosures are going to double this year and be even higher next year. Selling homes will reach epidemic proportions.

TOM, did you hear the segment NPR had about this Friday? I believe it was right after the Katrina trailer fiasco/debate. It was VERY interesting. They are prediciting that in the next 5 years, one in five mortages will be foreclosed because of sub-prime mortgages.

So it may be bad to be a sub-prime lendee, or live in a neighborhood where there's likely to be a large number of these lendees, but it could be a great time to start construction on a new apartment complex. Or a great time if you could warm up to the idea of buying up foreclosed homes and reselling them through low down payment, high interest loans.

TOM: This goes back to a thread where we discussed clerical political influence. Several Christians jumped in and hotly declared that they have never witnessed their minister or priest telling the congregation how to vote. They couldn't believe I would suggest such a thing. As far as I'm concerned, they're burying their heads in the sand of religious rhetoric and that is exactly how the heads of their church are able to tell them how to vote without even saying the words, "You must vote for ___________(fill in the blank.)

It also goes to the question of why otherwise very good Christians can say that Bush's actions in Iraq have been for the good of the people of the United States, and why they might also agree with Pat Robertson, for instance, that he was called by God to lead this country.

BJ--I agree with you. I left a church because I was being told how to vote, not in a sermon, not in in those words but every action the church did. I was made to feel like I was a sinner because I am not a Republican. I never have been, nor will ever be!

I believe strongly that my political beliefs do not belong to my church, nor should they be part of the decision whether I am a good christian or not. God will NOT send me to hell because I am a Liberal, I am sure of that. If so, I am pretty sure I will be meeting Mother Theresa down there as well!

I agree that many christians are fast to point their fingers, but I am one to believe that when I point my finger, there are 4 pointing back at me. And, I am not God, nor should I make any judgements about how someone else chooses to live their life.

I am not Republican because I feel that they do not support my goals in life. Not because I am pressured by my church to choose them. And if you are a member of a church where there is no political agenda, where are you? I seriously want to come.

I remember one example that really stands out. We were at a small-group meeting. Someone say a newspaper picture of a group of local politicians praying, and commented on how great that was. Well, until he picked it up, and read the caption identifying them as Democrats. His comment then? "Who do they think they are praying to", said with disgust.

Ok, that may not be a pastor preaching on how to vote, but it's an example of the attitude that is all too common.

lethea g: You are a smart, consciously aware person. Not all people who attend church are paying as much attention as you. I believe we can attend church and be spiritual and worship Him without getting sucked into the church's agenda politically, but it is very, very difficult sometimes!

lisa: The scenario you mentioned is similar to some of the things I have been witness to over the years. It is what laurend mentioned earlier... the epitome of hypocrisy!

TOM: This goes back to a thread where we discussed clerical political influence. Several Christians jumped in and hotly declared that they have never witnessed their minister or priest telling the congregation how to vote. They couldn't believe I would suggest such a thing. As far as I'm concerned, they're burying their heads in the sand of religious rhetoric and that is exactly how the heads of their church are able to tell them how to vote without even saying the words, "You must vote for ___________(fill in the blank.)

It also goes to the question of why otherwise very good Christians can say that Bush's actions in Iraq have been for the good of the people of the United States, and why they might also agree with Pat Robertson, for instance, that he was called by God to lead this country.

Some of us not only don't HEAR ourselves being influenced to vote a particular way, but we wouldn't pay any attention if we did. I'm a Democrat. Democrats are, typically, pro-choice. The Catholic Church (my church) is anti-abortion. The Republicans are not going to get my vote just because of the abortion issue, which is, by the way, a non-issue to me, since I am not going to have one.

Wow! This is so different from where I live. Up here the church is not welcome in the affairs of the state. We have no local Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells and their ilk. There have been a few folks who have tried to set themselves as religious and political forces but they have met with little success outside their own tiny bands of supporters. Indeed they are viewed with suspicion by most Canadians, certainly the ones who live in urban centres.

For many years our Conservative party was only conservative on economic issues. It was socially liberal. When it was destroyed by an overwhelming victory in the late '80s by our centrist party, the Liberals - a party which falls considerably to the left of your Democrats - a small rurally-based party of Christian social conservatives formed in Alberta, our oil-rich province. This splinter party helped to keep the Liberals in power for many, many years since it served to diffuse those votes destined for the right.

The two parties eventually married up, a cautious marriage of convenience mind you, and finally won a minority government. They lost the first time around because the Canadian voters were spooked by the noisy voices of the Christian social right. The second time out the party did manage a win, a minority win, but only because the Liberals had become complacent and corrupt and their leader managed to squelch the voices of the more extreme members - the ones that wanted to interfere with the Canadian legislation guaranteeing a woman's right to choose and same sex couples' rights to civil marriage.

Green: How would you deal with a scenario whereby your Christian social right started shouting to the rooftops that anyone who disagreed with their stance on a person's right to choose and same sex marriages, was anti-Christian and going against the Bible? Not only that, what if they came into power and used their power to influence every aspect of the government and your military? What if the leftists became completely impotent and you even had to worry because your elections appeared to be fixed?

I can't speak for green but as a fellow Canadian and a Liberal with a significant left leaning point of view I can tell you that any political party in Canada that chose to become alligned with the religious right would fail miserably. The three main parties in Canada know this and are very carefull to keep religion out of their platform. Even the Conservative party, which by the way, would more closely align with the Democrats in the U.S. avoid being alligned with the religious right.

Canadians on the whole are far less religious then our neighbors to the south. We are not apposed to religion, we actually very much encourage diversity be it cultural or religious, we just prefer to make decisions based on what is best for the whole. Don't get me wrong sometimes we fail miserably but the arguments tend to be based on Liberalism versus Conservatism versus Socialism.

It's actually quite an exciting time because the political parties are beggining to fight over which one is the party to best protect the enviroment. I think we have passed the point of arguing about same sex marriages although there are still some desentors.

It seems to be a huge waste of time to argue over whether Bill and Bob or Tina and Cindy should be allowed to get married when it appears that the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

As well I just returned from Florida and I did hear that that state is seeing a huge downturn in property values, I was intersted in finding out why so thanks for the info folks.

Finally on my drive I saw a big church along the highway that hand a big pond in front and in the pond there was a huge statue of Jesus's upper torso with his eyes and hands raised towards the heavens. My wife asked me what it represented and I looked at it then said to my wife, I think he is asking "Who pushed me in this Goddam puddle"

Maybe not but it was the best guess I could come up with

Cheers

TommyO