can you build muscle on a post-op diet?

[bussy37 35]

Can real muscle growth be achieved when on a post-op 650 calorie diet? I am just over three months post-op, have lost 74 lbs, 94 lbs total. I do strength training with a trainer three times a week and cardio five times a week. Because my target weight loss was 225 lbs, I am still on a diet of 600-650 calories, 100-125 grams of Protein, 15-20 grams of carbs and 15-20 grams of fat per day. During my weight loss, I have lost over 17 total inches but almost 40% of that is muscle loss. I am prone to stalls that last for two weeks. I work out extremely hard but am completely frustrated that I have no muscle growth to show for it. Any thoughts or suggestions are most welcome.

[aliekat55 157]

it seems unlikely that u can starve the body and then ask it to build energy demanding muscle. IMHO

[Beach Lover 1,084]

Before surgery I was in pretty good shape as far as muscle tone is concerned. Today 3 1/2 months post op they are shot! I go to the gym and get all my Protein but I think it will take some time to get it back. Many on here will tell you that it can be done but it takes some work. Good luck to you!

[aroundhky 1,174]

Typically, lifting on a calorie deficit such as that will not enable you to "build" muscle. However, lifting during a major calorie deficit (along with sufficient Protein consumption) will help you retain the muscle you do have. Then once you start getting closer to maintenance calories on a daily basis, you'll be able to add muscle and build strength. When you have the clearance from your Dr to begin lifting, it's important to get in there and lift 2-3 times a week, but start out light and slowly build up gradually. This will let your body know that you still need your muscle during this weight loss phase and your body will use more fat for energy and less muscle. You'll hold onto your muscle a little better than you would by not lifting during the major weight loss phase. Just my humble opinion through my own experiences and the bit of reading that I've done. Good luck!

[ItsMe2033 143]

First congrats on doing such a great workout. Please keep it up.

Here is the important thing to keep in mind, it doesn't matter if you build muscle or not, as long as you lose the least muscle possible while losing fat.

Consider the following situation. There are three people who each weigh 300 pounds and have a lean body mass of 150 pounds, so each has 50% bodyfat. Let's consider what happens when each of these people loses weight. (These examples are a little unrealistic just to illustrate the concept)

Person 1 doesn't exercise, and so loses both fat and muscle, but lots of muscle. At the end they have lost 70 pound of muscle and 30 pounds of fat. They end up with 80 pounds of lean body mass and 120 pounds of fat, so they end up with 60% bodyfat.

Person 2 exercises some and so loses fat and muscle in equal amounts. They lose 50 pounds of muscle and 50 pounds of fat. They end up with 100 pounds of lean body mass and 100 pounds of fat mass, so they end up at 50% bodyfat.

Person 3 exercise a whole lot, and loses more fat and not as much muscle. They lose 90 pounds of fat and 10 pounds of muscle, and so they end up with a lean body mass of 140 pounds and 60 pounds of fat, so they end up at 30% bodyfat.

So the issue is not really if you are going to build muscle or not. The issue is really that as you lose weight, your percentage of bodyfat can increase or decrease even if you are not building muscle. So I would think that most people would like to be person 3 above, and not be person 1.

[aroundhky 1,174]

Great illustration "ItsMe"!

I would just like to add that the person 3 will typically lose weight slower than the other 2 due to exercising more than the first 2. Physiologically, we can lose (burn) that muscle mass a lot faster than we can burn fat. So someone at a big caloric deficit that does not exercise at all, will usually lose weight faster than someone who is exercising most days, but as "ItsMe" stated, a lot, if not most, of that weight loss will be muscle. And this seems to trick a lot of people that start exercise and don't lose as slowly as they'd like. But in the end the slower weight loss with exercise will assure the person losing weight that's is mostly fat due to hanging on to more of their muscle. So if better body composition (body fat vs muscle), is your goal, try to not let the weight on the scale fool you. If you stick with the correct calories and keep exercising, you'll keep dropping the fat even though it's not showing on the scale as much as we'd prefer. I tried to weigh only once a month during this process, but that's easier said than done.

[bussy37 35]

"ItsMe" - I would certainly prefer to be person #3 as the lesser of all evils in your comparison.

"AroundHKY" - I am definitely losing weight much slower than my doctor or myself would like. I will have my measurements and body mass composition done again in two more weeks. I will then have an better idea of how I shape up.

Alas, if you ask anyone who knows me, they will tell you patience is not one of my strong suits. I want to lose fat while still building muscle and it's evident that these are two distinctly different aspects of this journey called weight loss surgery.

[ItsMe2033 143]

Great illustration "ItsMe"!

I would just like to add that the person 3 will typically lose weight slower than the other 2 due to exercising more that the first 2. Physiologically, we can lose (burn) that muscle mass a lot faster than we can burn fat. So someone at a big caloric deficit that does not exercise at all, will usually lose weight faster than someone who is exercising most days, but as "ItsMe" stated, a lot, if not most, of that weight loss will be muscle. And this seems to trick a lot of people that start exercise and don't lose as slowly as they'd like. But in the end the slower weight loss with exercise will assure the person losing weight that's is mostly fat due to hanging on to more of their muscle. So if better body composition (body fat vs muscle), is your goal, try to not let the weight on the scale fool you. If you stick with the correct calories and keep exercising, you'll keep dropping the fat even though it's not showing on the scale as much as we'd prefer. I tried to weigh only once a month during this process, but that's easier said than done.

Thanks for mentioning that. That is one of the most fundamental truths that many people don't realize. Muscle contains about 450 calories per pound, and fat contains about 3500 calories per pound. That means that if you are burning 7000 calories per week than you are taking in, that can show up as a two pound fat loss, or a 15 pound muscle loss, or something in between. Unfortunately your scales only tell you how many pounds you lost, not what type of loss. The big issue is that muscle is so easy to lose, and so difficult to regain. Overall, the lower your percentage bodyfat, the healthier you will be, and the easier it will be to keep weight off.

I get very concerned for some posters when I see them having these high rates of weight loss after the first week or two after surgery and they are also talking about their low Protein intake because I know their loss is probably mostly muscle. I realize that some people just can't meet their Protein needs due to nausea, and post-surgical swelling, but I've also seen many posts where people just pay lip service to getting enough protein.

I met my protein goals on the third day after surgery, and I'm always at the high end of my allowed protein intake. I realize that this has made my weight loss slower than for some people, but I'm still very satisfied with that tradeoff.

[gamergirl 4,609]

Thanks so much for starting this thread. Although I am only 8 weeks post-op, lately I have started to think that what I need is not a goal weight, but a goal body fat percentage. I don't want to be skinny fat. I don't want to lose metabolism-boosting muscle and be left with a lot of fat. No one will know how much I weigh except me, but the whole world could look at me and know whether or not I am fit and strong.

I've put on muscle from lifting before so I know how frustrating it is to work out hard and not see weight loss. I worked out with a trainer 3 times a week, cardio and heavy weights, and ate clean for 6 straight months--and lost 1 lb. I was so disheartened I cried. And I cry maybe once every two years so this was serious! Turns out I had put on 13 lbs of muscle in those 6 months. Who knew? I now use a scale called eat smart that measures body fat and muscle mass.

I expect to lose muscle at our level of calories. I know that all I can do is minimize the loss of muscle and maximize the fat loss.

Rambling a bit, but my point is maybe we all need to focus more on muscle retention and fat loss rather than muscle gain and weight loss.

Sorry I was probably of NO help whatsoever to the OP! But your thread and the responses were very helpful to me, so thank you

[ItsMe2033 143]

There's another element to it as well. I'll use bodybuilder terms for this one.

When you are building muscle, you are in what's called an "anabolic state." And when you are losing weight, you are in what's called a "catabolic state." According to everything related to bodybuilding that I have ever read, you can only be in one state or the other, never both at the same time. The only exception to that is what bodybuilders refer to as a "fat beginner." According to bodybuilding materials that I have read, a "fat beginner" can build muscle and lose fat at the same time if they work out very hard, if they've never worked out much before or not in a long time, if they are substantially overweight, and if they have a moderate calorie deficit (150 - 500 calories per day deficit). I think that the calorie deficits that we have as sleeve patients puts us out of that range.

Bodybuilders usually go through alternating cycles. First there's cutting where they try to have a small calorie deficit and they workout less where they are trying to lose bodyfat, followed by a period where they eat more calories than they need, and workout more to try to gain muscle. This is called bulking. (Many amateur bodybuilders screw up this stage and overeat too much and end up gaining back all the fat they lost during their previous cutting stage.)

Usually bodybuilders do cutting and bulking cycles of 2 - 4 months each. I'm thinking of my sleeve journey as being a 12 - 18 month cutting cycle.

[Carlotta 57]

Omg..I don't watt to lose much muscle mass..otherwise what good is a weight loss when it is muscle that you are eating up...I need to talk to my nutritionist about this..I have real good muscle tone and don't want to look saggy after I lose my weight. I would definitely take a slower weight loss and take in proper amount of Protein to retain most of my muscle mass. Most gyms have an apparatus that can read your Water, fat, skeletal, and muscle weight. I would want to monitor this while I am on my weight loss journey. Few ago I was on MEDIFASt, lost 65 pounds, and retained most of my muscle mass. I looked very healthily after owing so much weight. Glad that this issue was discussed so I can be aware of what oh need to do after weight loss surgery to reain as much muscle mass as possible.

[ItsMe2033 143]

Omg..I don't watt to lose much muscle mass..otherwise what good is a weight loss when it is muscle that you are eating up...I need to talk to my nutritionist about this..I have real good muscle tone and don't want to look saggy after I lose my weight. I would definitely take a slower weight loss and take in proper amount of Protein to retain most of my muscle mass. Most gyms have an apparatus that can read your Water, fat, skeletal, and muscle weight. I would want to monitor this while I am on my weight loss journey. Few ago I was on MEDIFASt, lost 65 pounds, and retained most of my muscle mass. I looked very healthily after owing so much weight. Glad that this issue was discussed so I can be aware of what oh need to do after weight loss surgery to reain as much muscle mass as possible.

The number one thing to get what you want is to have a Protein intake at the upper end of your target. Some NUTs are a little conservative about this upper end. I would recommend that you talk to your NUT and see about a protein intake around 100 grams per day. Since I'm a male, I target to get 120 grams per day.

The next most important thing is working out using weights or machines. Aerobic exercise is great for your health and will help weight loss, but it does not build muscle.

[NMJG 1,266]

Great illustration "ItsMe"!

I would just like to add that the person 3 will typically lose weight slower than the other 2 due to exercising more that the first 2. Physiologically, we can lose (burn) that muscle mass a lot faster than we can burn fat. So someone at a big caloric deficit that does not exercise at all, will usually lose weight faster than someone who is exercising most days, but as "ItsMe" stated, a lot, if not most, of that weight loss will be muscle. And this seems to trick a lot of people that start exercise and don't lose as slowly as they'd like. But in the end the slower weight loss with exercise will assure the person losing weight that's is mostly fat due to hanging on to more of their muscle. So if better body composition (body fat vs muscle), is your goal, try to not let the weight on the scale fool you. If you stick with the correct calories and keep exercising, you'll keep dropping the fat even though it's not showing on the scale as much as we'd prefer. I tried to weigh only once a month during this process, but that's easier said than done.

Great thread. Is this why we see some people losing 20 lbs a month and others losing 8-10 lbs a month?

[ItsMe2033 143]

Great thread. Is this why we see some people losing 20 lbs a month and others losing 8-10 lbs a month?

It's one of the big reasons why some people lose more weight than others. During the preop diet, and the first month after surgery people can lose weight faster than later on without necessarily losing extra muscle as long as Protein intake is adequate. During the preop diet the body is undergoing glycogen depletion, which can result in about 8 - 10 pounds of Water weight being lost. During the first month after surgery, many people are eating substantially less than than 800 - 1000 calories per day. Since they have a greater calorie deficit they will lose at a faster rate. Also during the first month postop, you will be exercising less or not at all due to post-surgical restrictions, so naturally you will lose some additional muscle mass during this time.

After the first month postop, the weight lost is a function of the calorie deficit and the type of weight being lost. The calorie deficit is the calories consumed minus the resting metabolic rate and calories burned through exercise and activity.

As an example, let's first consider the case of someone who exercises a significant amount. If someone ate 1000 calories per day and had a resting metabolic rate of 1700 calories per day and they burned 300 calories per day then they would have a calorie deficit of 1000 calories per day. If that person lost all that weight as fat, they would lose 2 pounds per week. If they lost all that weight as muscle, they would lose 15 pounds in a week. In reality you never lose all fat or all muscle, but you lose some of both. If you have enough Protein intake and exercise a lot you might lose about 95% of it as fat, and 5% as muscle. This would work out to be losing 1.9 pounds of fat and .75 pounds of muscle during the week, or about 2.7 pounds per week, or around 11 pounds per month, and most of this is fat.

Now consider another individual with the same calorie intake. Since they don't exercise their resting metabolic rate is lower, let's just say 1500 calories per day (There's some controversy about how much exercise raises resting metabolic rate, but I won't bother with that here.) So the person eats 1000 calories per day and and has a resting metabolic rate of 1500 calories per day, for a net calorie deficit of 500 calories per day, or 3500 calories per week. If the person lost all of this as fat, they would lose 1 pound per week. If they lost it all as muscle they would lose 7.5 pounds per week. Since they are not working out, they will lose more of it as muscle. Let's suppose that they lose 50% of the calories as muscle, and 50% as fat. In that case the person would lose 1/2 pound of fat and 3.75 pounds of muscle during that week or a total of 4.25 pounds per week or about 18 pounds per month.

So roughly speaking, the person working out loses only half as many pounds, but loses twice as much fat. That's one of the main reasons that people shouldn't compare their weight loss to the weight loss of others.

[aroundhky 1,174]

Omg..I don't watt to lose much muscle mass..otherwise what good is a weight loss when it is muscle that you are eating up...I need to talk to my nutritionist about this..I have real good muscle tone and don't want to look saggy after I lose my weight. I would definitely take a slower weight loss and take in proper amount of Protein to retain most of my muscle mass. Most gyms have an apparatus that can read your Water, fat, skeletal, and muscle weight. I would want to monitor this while I am on my weight loss journey. Few ago I was on MEDIFASt, lost 65 pounds, and retained most of my muscle mass. I looked very healthily after owing so much weight. Glad that this issue was discussed so I can be aware of what oh need to do after weight loss surgery to reain as much muscle mass as possible.

Carlotta............some muscle mass (especially first couple of months post-op at such a calorie deficit) is really unavoidable. I've been there.....I nearly freaked out after about two months when I became so flabby. This after working out and lifting hard for years....it was like all of my muscle wasted away overnight. But the more Protein you get in early on while exercising (resistance training), the less muscle you'll lose during this rapid weight loss phase. You don't want to start lifting before your Dr gives you the green light, but once the Dr clears you, start back lifting, but ease into it. Also get in your protein during this time if you can, and you'll reduce the amount of muscle loss. I probably slacked a bit on both elements a little. But I still got in close to my daily protein goals and I worked out about twice a week. If I had stepped it up a little more, my muscle loss would have been a lot less. When the I started getting in around 90-100 grams of protein and lifting more, I recovered nicely after a few months of lifting hard. But some loss will happen, just try to get into a lifting routine fairly soon and get the protein in and it will slow...if not stop.....then just about all of your weight loss will be fat.