I have always struggled both in online groups and in my physical groups when a particular situation presents itself. That situation is when someone is doing something clearly against their best interests as it relates to WLS. I’m talking about the cases where people are clearly heading off track. I find myself at times frustrated and responding in an effort to get those individuals to realize what they’re doing is wrong and at times it has been in a less than tactful way. It has caused me to question why I even care or bother to respond at all. I have spent a decent about of time trying to answer this question for myself and figured I would try to explain it to y’all as well.

I view myself and all of us that have WLS as members of a community. I want every person that goes through this process to be successful and improve the quality of their life. As a member of the community I feel an obligation to help those that I can on their journey. I also have a selfish motivation in trying to help others. I hate that many people in the general public view WLS patients as cheating, taking the easy way out, or that we are just continuing the pattern of laziness that got us to obesity in the first place. I hate hearing the obligatory stories, which we have all heard that goes something like this, “My friend had WLS, lost a bunch of weight and then gained it back”. I have vowed to never be that guy in the story. Here’s the selfish part of my motivation, I never want YOU to be that guy in the story either.

Again from a community perspective we all fail when one of our WLS brothers or sisters does become that guy. We fail together when people go into this thinking it will be the magic bullet and don’t realize it actually does take a lot of work by the individual to succeed. We all fail when people don’t make the food changes necessary and instead think the only tool needed is the surgery.

Maybe I’m wrong and should not view others success or failure as my own. Maybe I’m wrong by not being a cheerleader when people are looking for a little friendly enabling. What’s it to me after all? Sure go ahead, a double cheese burger at 2 weeks out sounds like a great idea! If it doesn't hurt, it must be ok to do, right? Hell let’s wash it down with a vanilla shake!

Sorry I just can’t do it. Guess I will have to become comfortable with my role as the hard ass.

I will extend one offer though. If you do want to know how to totally defeat your sleeve (RNY, DS or Band too) let me know. It’s a road map that is not difficult to follow. I figure that would at least give those inclined a quicker way to regain instead of having to spend all the time testing the waters with various, “I wonder if I can have XYZ”? If you’re reconciled to not trying and just want to jump right to failure then send me a PM, let’s get it done and out of the way.

In any event, I hope this gives a better understand of why I care and view WLS support in the way that I do. I mean no one any ill will ever, but I also will not condone actions that are contrary to being a successful WLS patient. Best of luck on your journey.

I'm still relatively new here myself, just 6 weeks out today, but there are many of you (several which have posted to this thread) that I truly respect their input. I often see certain names pop up and the responses have been nothing but helpful and truthful!

Thank you to all of you who take the time out to try and help your fellow sleevers! I certainly appreciate every word!

Do you remember if there was a teacher everyone wanted because he/she was the easy one. No one wanted the one who gave a ton of homework, had surprise tests, or didn't grade on a curve. Same here- tell me I can do what I want, take the easy route, and still be successful. It's like the guy who speeds by in the lane that is going to end just to get 4 cars further than everyone else. I know I wouldn't (probably couldn't if i wanted to) eat a won ton (with or without meat) at 2 weeks but someone asks and then gets upset when told it wasn't a good idea. I

Thanks to all of you who care enough to take a stand and take a beating along the way.

All I know is..we need pictures of this hard ass..so we can judge for ourselves. It is all scientific..I swear!

Amen! Being only 9 weeks out, I am *not* a vet but I do recognize that I've made many bad choices along the way or I would never have needed WLS. I was always smart enough to realize my mistakes but stupid enough to make them anyways. No more!

I will not enable people who want to put themselves at risk. Even more importantly, I cannot stand by silently knowing that people who are reading but not participating in the discussions are getting bad ideas and advice from the enablers. (I was one of those for almost a year pre-op!)

Name calling by strangers on the Internet holds little value and I've been called worse by better in real life. We are all in this together, IMO, and I will happily join Team Assholio before I will patronize bad decisions.

I agree with a lot of Paul's post. There is a huge reason you see so very few real vets around here. You see a large number of people that post all day, every day for most of the first year...and then they drop off.

Anyone remember Tiffykins? Or Diva? Or even O.T.R.? Hey, my buddy ButtertheBean isn't around as much anymore, either. And PdxMan? He's one of my heroes. They are hardly here anymore, and many don't show up at all. Even cheerleaders like Lissa or regular posters like Catracks are gone!

And let us not forget that it basically falls to a handful of people that are reasonable, with sound experience, to give a lot of the support here. I figure upwards of 75% of the posters here are not regular. They come in, post a vent or complaint or a yay me post and boogie onward without a thanks or a farewell. This is a community of TAKERS with very few people that actually give their time or experience. I can attest to that as most any time I have asked a question I've gotten a handful of responses - more people manage to "like" my post than bother to help me answer a question and quite frankly, it's frustrating to see that a post about sex drive or hating your sleeve can generate hundreds of replies when people have REAL questions or REAL concerns that actually matter. Seriously!

FACT: It is absolutely EXHAUSTING to give your time, effort, advice and experience here. If you're the voice of reason and don't couch your responses in perfectly P.C. encouragement, people actually attack you for trying to help. See, you're supposed to help - you just have to do it the "right" way.

Utter B.S.

I have gone back and forth on this one, myself. I have had super ultra politically correct and supportive months and months where I get so sick and tired of it that I post blunt, hard truth. I've been told I make people scared to post. Well, my opinion? Stop posting silly things. Really - it's embarrassing to everyone here to have the value of this entire community and the easily accessible information diminished by silly, immature posts or by the same darn questions over and over again.

If you want to post a question and already know the answer or already know that nobody is going to okay your poor choice DO NOT LOOK FOR VALIDATION HERE.

But in all honesty? These aren't even the questions that get me anymore. It's the (HT, FYE) hubris of some people.

In the last three days I have read some of the most insulting comments by people that, comparatively speaking, have almost ZERO real experience with the sleeve. I'm glad you're here contributing after four to six months, really, people. That's super swell. But it takes quite a bit of chutzpah to assume you know every challenge on the road ahead, and to insult people for not walking the exact same path as you.

People are not stupid because they eat foods that aren't ideal choices. They're human. This is not all or nothing, there is not only one proper way to achieve and maintain. Do not assume that your way is the only way or that if someone chooses a more moderate approach that they're wrong, they're going to fail, and they're stupid.

Because that's what I'm seeing.

You think this is super easy and anyone who struggles or loses slowly isn't trying hard enough? Come tell me that in a year, or two.

You think the answer to everything is more exercise, more Protein or more Water? Gee, thanks for that. I'm sure nobody ever considered it.

You think that every pound you lose is gone forever, because the only way to stop losing or regain is to go on an ice cream orgy? Ha!

You think this is as simple as eating the "right" foods and getting exercise? I only have crude responses to that. Because this person - the person that says this - is a hypocrite. Because this is the abuse that was heaped upon us by family and doctors prior to our choice to have surgery, so give yourself a nice pat on the back to being absolutely unhelpful, and yeah, a hypocrite.

Look - it's a line to walk. Insult the vets and lose the vets. Ask a question, expect answers. But watch how you ask and answer things, too. I try to be more considerate and thoughtful nowadays. I still have my moments. But people are more likely to listen if their hackles aren't up. Everyone that disagrees with you isn't stupid or wrong.

Paul is a tremendously successful vet and while his approach and mine are different that does not mean that one of us has to be wrong. It means we have two different viewpoints and two different sets of experience we can and do use to help here.

And hey, while I'm thinking of it, lurkers and infrequent posters should consider contributing here a bit more. And hey, to those that are constantly stirring up issues and being argumentative, try to keep your high school drama and clique garbage to yourselves, and, as I tell my five year olds "pack up your bad attitudes and put them in your pockets." All the attempts to prove you have the one perfect and correct answer by going back and forth does is alienate people.

Ya'll make me crazy sometimes.

Good post, Paul. None of the vets here are here to give validation for poor choices.

~Cheri

I'll be right there next to you Paul. I unfortunately have to wait until Nov/Dec for my wls because my ins requires a 6 month program before final approval. But all I can say to some of these posts and things I see in the chatroom is WOW are you kidding me??? You are exactly right, some people are looking for the answer they WANT to hear and nothing more. I saw someone in chat saying they were eating solid food after a couple of days (even though their surgeon said not to), and recently I think they're about 5-7 weeks out and saw they said they ate a slice of pizza! Seriously?? Why would you put yourself through this drastic life changing surgery if you have no intentions of following a new way of eating or your Dr's advice? I don't get it.

Cheri, thanks for sharing that post. So many of us truly appreciate the efforts of the vets who DO show up, I hope you & Paul (and Laura-Ven, and Fiddleman, and...) will continue to do so despite some of the negative aspects. Some of us really rely on you and are grateful for your voices of reason!

Paul you're not an A hole! From reading the posts on this forum, I've come to the realization that some people just don't get it. Maybe they haven't researched nutrition obsessively like I have. Maybe they 100% rely on the surgery and don't understand that success depends on the choices we make . This forum needs people like you and those who have experience for knowledge and enlightenment. I've learned to offer my knowledge and move on. If someone wants to argue, they aren't getting a response back from me. I want everyone to be successful too. Keep offering what you can! It's priceless! Take care!

All I know is..we need pictures of this hard ass..so we can judge for ourselves. It is all scientific..I swear!

LMAO... I wish it was worth taking a picture of, but I'm so afraid you'd just be disappointed.

I want to thank everyone that has taken the time to read my post and more importantly for replying to it. It is only through honest interactions that we can all grow and develop, both as a community and as individuals. I would never intend to say that I will always be right or my experience is encompassing of all WLS experiences. When I'm wrong, I expect to be confronted about it, hell it's the only way I can move beyond my own ignorance.

There are many paths to the end goal, but there are some paths that will only lead to setbacks, undue difficulties and failure as well. Those are the paths I will not encourage one to go down, nor would I want to be allowed to travel blindly down myself as I look to others for guidance.

Again thank you all for reading and for your responses.

LMAO... I wish it was worth taking a picture of, but I'm so afraid you'd just be disappointed.

Pfft..this is why you need a second opinion!

I agree with a lot of Paul's post. There is a huge reason you see so very few real vets around here. You see a large number of people that post all day' date=' every day for most of the first year...and then they drop off.

Anyone remember Tiffykins? Or Diva? Or even O.T.R.? Hey, my buddy ButtertheBean isn't around as much anymore, either. And PdxMan? He's one of my heroes. They are hardly here anymore, and many don't show up at all. Even cheerleaders like Lissa or regular posters like Catracks are gone!

And let us not forget that it basically falls to a handful of people that are reasonable, with sound experience, to give a lot of the support here. I figure upwards of 75% of the posters here are not regular. They come in, post a vent or complaint or a yay me post and boogie onward without a thanks or a farewell. This is a community of TAKERS with very few people that actually give their time or experience. I can attest to that as most any time I have asked a question I've gotten a handful of responses - more people manage to "like" my post than bother to help me answer a question and quite frankly, it's frustrating to see that a post about sex drive or hating your sleeve can generate hundreds of replies when people have REAL questions or REAL concerns that actually matter. Seriously!

FACT: It is absolutely EXHAUSTING to give your time, effort, advice and experience here. If you're the voice of reason and don't couch your responses in perfectly P.C. encouragement, people actually attack you for trying to help. See, you're supposed to help - you just have to do it the "right" way.

Utter B.S.

I have gone back and forth on this one, myself. I have had super ultra politically correct and supportive months and months where I get so sick and tired of it that I post blunt, hard truth. I've been told I make people scared to post. Well, my opinion? Stop posting silly things. Really - it's embarrassing to everyone here to have the value of this entire community and the easily accessible information diminished by silly, immature posts or by the same darn questions over and over again.

If you want to post a question and already know the answer or already know that nobody is going to okay your poor choice DO NOT LOOK FOR VALIDATION HERE.

But in all honesty? These aren't even the questions that get me anymore. It's the (HT, FYE) hubris of some people.

In the last three days I have read some of the most insulting comments by people that, comparatively speaking, have almost ZERO real experience with the sleeve. I'm glad you're here contributing after four to six months, really, people. That's super swell. But it takes quite a bit of chutzpah to assume you know every challenge on the road ahead, and to insult people for not walking the exact same path as you.

People are not stupid because they eat foods that aren't ideal choices. They're human. This is not all or nothing, there is not only one proper way to achieve and maintain. Do not assume that your way is the only way or that if someone chooses a more moderate approach that they're wrong, they're going to fail, and they're stupid.

Because that's what I'm seeing.

You think this is super easy and anyone who struggles or loses slowly isn't trying hard enough? Come tell me that in a year, or two.

You think the answer to everything is more exercise, more Protein or more Water? Gee, thanks for that. I'm sure nobody ever considered it.

You think that every pound you lose is gone forever, because the only way to stop losing or regain is to go on an ice cream orgy? Ha!

You think this is as simple as eating the "right" foods and getting exercise? I only have crude responses to that. Because this person - the person that says this - is a hypocrite. Because this is the abuse that was heaped upon us by family and doctors prior to our choice to have surgery, so give yourself a nice pat on the back to being absolutely unhelpful, and yeah, a hypocrite.

Look - it's a line to walk. Insult the vets and lose the vets. Ask a question, expect answers. But watch how you ask and answer things, too. I try to be more considerate and thoughtful nowadays. I still have my moments. But people are more likely to listen if their hackles aren't up. Everyone that disagrees with you isn't stupid or wrong.

Paul is a tremendously successful vet and while his approach and mine are different that does not mean that one of us has to be wrong. It means we have two different viewpoints and two different sets of experience we can and do use to help here.

And hey, while I'm thinking of it, lurkers and infrequent posters should consider contributing here a bit more. And hey, to those that are constantly stirring up issues and being argumentative, try to keep your high school drama and clique garbage to yourselves, and, as I tell my five year olds "pack up your bad attitudes and put them in your pockets." All the attempts to prove you have the one perfect and correct answer by going back and forth does is alienate people.

Ya'll make me crazy sometimes.

Good post, Paul. None of the vets here are here to give validation for poor choices.

~Cheri[/quote']

I remember Tiffykins!!! She was my main inspiration a few years ago. I tried to get a hold of her right before surgery, but she never replied. She must not check in at all anymore even to lurk.

Great post Paul. I so agree with the points you've made. I made the mistake of coming down on people for cheating in the past and changed the way I feel. I have read some very disturbing posts on various threads recently, or as you said people looking for validation for bad behavior. I can and will only give advice that is helpful. I can only speak of my journey which may be on a different path than that of someone else.

I have been slammed a few times for advice I thought was helpful but apparently was not what someone we wanted to hear. However, that is the role of this forum. We may not always want to hear what is said, but try to respect the rights of the person posting. However, there is no need for some of the nasty posts and online rights I have read. Especially those where the moderator closes the thread.

I joined this forum for support and to help with my decision on the sleeve and have found it tremendously helpful. I contribute to different threads to hopefully offer advice and to help someone along the way with there path and hope to contribute for a long time.

Laura, that means I may be trailing behind but I am aiming for your crown. Lol.

Good luck to all of us on our respective journeys. I say our journeys because we are all in this together, or at least I would hope so.

......

In the last three days I have read some of the most insulting comments by people that, comparatively speaking, have almost ZERO real experience with the sleeve. I'm glad you're here contributing after four to six months, really, people. That's super swell. But it takes quite a bit of chutzpah to assume you know every challenge on the road ahead, and to insult people for not walking the exact same path as you.

People are not stupid because they eat foods that aren't ideal choices. They're human. This is not all or nothing, there is not only one proper way to achieve and maintain. Do not assume that your way is the only way or that if someone chooses a more moderate approach that they're wrong, they're going to fail, and they're stupid.

Because that's what I'm seeing.

<uh....slowly, sheepishly raises hand> Yeah, that was me. 4 months in, I thought I knew it all. I thought I had it down cold. I figured "what else can happen?" I was cruising along like a battleship with no thought of slowing down. Until that day when my body decided to stop losing weight in spite of my wishes.....wow does that ever change your attitude.

These days I take a little more flexible approach. I know what works for me, I don't always know what works for everyone else. More importantly, I know that my way isn't the only way. And I cringe when I read these new threads that sound just like I used to sound. I want to say "talk to me in 6-12 months." And then I tell myself....give it another 2 years, where will I be then? Makes me realize there is still more to learn....alot more.

But like Paul, I'm not going to enable anyone, even though there is plenty of opportunity to do so. And you can see it coming a mile away....and you can understand where it's coming from. People are struggling....struggling with food addictions, fighting head hunger, frustrated by stalls, and forced to deal with feelings that were previously blunted with comfort eating. They really need relief. They need the comfort of an old friend who has been there for them for years....yes food. Everytime you read a post that says "when can I eat xxxx again?" Unless xxxx is a salad....but usually it's not. Remember the "when can I eat macaroni and cheese again" thread? Hell you can eat macaroni and cheese the day you get home from the hospital...purree it if you like, but why would you? Why would you want to go back to that life?

I know I don't. Like Paul, I don't want anyone to go back to that life. But I realize that the more I bow up and scream it from the rooftops, the more likely some people are to turn a deaf ear, slink away into dark corner, and eat that bowl of macaroni and cheese and not listen to those of us who have been right where they are.

I used to have a quote in my sig that said "why would you listen to the advice of someone who isn't where you want to be?" Well, maybe that quote is a little too stringent for me now. Afterall, some people are on a good path that will get them there. They learn, they keep an open mind, they are on the right track. But there are a few vets around here who ARE there...like Paul, like CLK...like several others. You know they found a way. They are definitely worth listening too. If you want to ignore their advice because they are not PC enough, or not sensitive enough to your feelings...you do so at your peril. I'd rather have my feelings hurt than be obese the rest of my life.

I am definitely new here but am happy to read this post! I have not ventured out of the July 2013 posts too much, but was thinking about walking away from this forum altogether with some of the advice I had seen given in the chat room, including being told I was foolish for following my pre-op diet and the number of reasons it was supposedly pointless.

I am pleased to know there are many vets willing to give advice and I look forward to your input when I need it. Thank you in advance!!