I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

Our earthly parents love us because of who we are, not what we do. Their love doesn't increase when we "do good". I love my children the same when they are disobedient as when they are obedient. I'd prefer them to be obedient, just as God prefers us to be obedient, but His love for us and my love for them is not contingent on their behavior.

God loves us all; that isn't the point. I believe we are redeemed by faith, but I also believe that to truly please God, we must do good works. And if we love Him, we will feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit those in jail, etc for Christ said whosoever does these for the least of mine, does them for me.

God loves us all; that isn't the point. I believe we are redeemed by faith, but I also believe that to truly please God, we must do good works. And if we love Him, we will feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit those in jail, etc for Christ said whosoever does these for the least of mine, does them for me.

Absolutely! If we truly love Him, then we will naturally do good works out of our love. But it is not those works that "earn" us heaven. Do we actually agree here? LOL!

This is a nice turn of events...

Absolutely! If we truly love Him, then we will naturally do good works out of our love. But it is not those works that "earn" us heaven. Do we actually agree here? LOL!

I think it takes both - faith AND good works. I don't think just believing in God is enough to get you to heaven. You have to FOLLOW Christ - to live a Christ-like life - and that requires good works. Salvation - the forgiveness of sins - is what Jesus earned for us when he died on the cross.

I think it takes both - faith AND good works. I don't think just believing in God is enough to get you to heaven. You have to FOLLOW Christ - to live a Christ-like life - and that requires good works. Salvation - the forgiveness of sins - is what Jesus earned for us when he died on the cross.

Oh, how much better life would be if most Christians agreed with you, Carlene!

Oh, how much better life would be if most Christians agreed with you, Carlene!

True, and I think true Christians would agree..:girl_hug:

True, and I think true Christians would agree..:girl_hug:

The problem is that all Christians think they are true Christians.

The problem is that all Christians think they are true Christians.

Let me tell you about a true Christian. I am reading a biography called Prison Angel. It is the story of Mary Clarke, a well-to-do white woman, who grew up in Beverly Hills, was married twice, and raised seven children in comfortable circumstances. Then, at the age of fifty, she experienced a calling to serve God so strong that it led her to literally sew her own habit and move to one of the most infamous penitentiaries in Mexico in order to help the inmates there, even though she spoke no Spanish and had no particular ties to the Hispanic community.

Now eighty years old, Mother Antonia, as she is known, is considered by many to be a living saint, someone who has walked directly into the middle of prison riots and gunfire to save lives. By all accounts, there isn’t anything she wouldn’t do for her “beloved hijos” (sons), and she has given everything to them, unconditionally, for nearly thirty years. To this day, she lives in a small cell, unequipped with either heat or hot water, alongside drug addicts, murderers, and the poor.

This woman's story humbles me to the core. She has inspired thousands of "good Christians" to be what she is - the image of Christ on Earth. Allow me to quote a passage from the book...

Mother Antonia took Sam one day to Tijuana's red-light zone, where she goes regularly to check on the prostitutes. They found one woman laid up in bed with terrible sores on her feet from an infection. Mother Antonia wanted to take her to the doctor, but she couldn't walk. So Sam, the smartly-dressed, silver-haired pastor from one of America's richest counties [Orange County, CA], leaned over and scooped her up into his arms and carried her to the doctor's office. As he walked past the Tijuana cantinas with a sick prostitute in his arms, he never felt more needed.

I wish I had a fraction of Mother Antonia's devotion.

The problem is that all Christians think they are true Christians.

No we don't. We think we are true believers, but most of us know we fall short of being Christ-like, which is the real definition of a Christian.

We think we are true believers, but most of us know we fall short of being Christ-like, which is the real definition of a Christian.

If you go up to most people at a church and ask them if they are a Christian, they don't say, "No, I am a believer." They say, "Yep." The point was that most, if not all, Christians think they are good Christians. Other people may say they aren't, but they themselves believe they are. I think there are very few Christians out there that would say no if you asked them if they believed they would be going to heaven.

Yep, there are the good Christians and then there are those who are self-righteous Christians and they aren't going to get it, are they?

Yep, there are the good Christians and then there are those who are self-righteous Christians and they aren't going to get it, are they?

No, Green. They are soooooo not going to get it.

If you go up to most people at a church and ask them if they are GOOD Christians, most will say, "I try to be", or "I hope so". At least that's what the people I go to church with would say....even my priest.

Other people may say they aren't, but they themselves believe they are.

I'm guessing that by this, you mean some people may claim not to be good Christians, while deep down they believe they really are. The point of this would be what????

I think there are very few Christians out there that would say no if you asked them if they believed they would be going to heaven.

I think you can be a mediocre Christian and still go to heaven. In fact, I'm counting on it.

I'm guessing that by this, you mean some people may claim not to be good Christians, while deep down they believe they really are. The point of this would be what????

No, I guess I worded it badly. I meant this: Joe is a Christian. Sam says Joe isn't a good Christian, but Joe believes he is.

One other thought I had (and this isn't pointed at you, Carlene, just a thought I had about what some other people have said here and in the past): If good Christians and mediocre Christians both go to heaven, what's the incentive to be a good Christian? Many people say, "You should be a good Christian just to help others or for the sake of doing a good thing." What makes these people different from the atheists? I have heard a lot of people say that being a Christian = being a good person, and that morality goes out the window if you don't believe in God. If a Christian should be a good Christian just for the sake of it, what prevents an atheist from being a good, moral person just for the sake of it?

No, I guess I worded it badly. I meant this: Joe is a Christian. Sam says Joe isn't a good Christian, but Joe believes he is.

One other thought I had (and this isn't pointed at you, Carlene, just a thought I had about what some other people have said here and in the past): If good Christians and mediocre Christians both go to heaven, what's the incentive to be a good Christian? Many people say, "You should be a good Christian just to help others or for the sake of doing a good thing." What makes these people different from the atheists? I have heard a lot of people say that being a Christian = being a good person, and that morality goes out the window if you don't believe in God. If a Christian should be a good Christian just for the sake of it, what prevents an atheist from being a good, moral person just for the sake of it?

Morality and Christianity are not synonymous. An Atheist can absolutely be a moral person. Morality means doing the right thing. You can, of course, do the right thing, or the charitable thing, without being a Christian. Lots of good people aren't Christians. On the other hand, Christians don't always do the right thing, and real Christians know that better than anyone.

The incentive to be a good Christian is hard to explain. The closest I can get is that nothing makes you feel as good about yourself as doing a kindness for someone else. There was a little story in our local paper at Christmas about a doctor who was shocked a few years ago to learn that two of his patients were homeless children, living in a cardboard box. It was Christmas time, so he bought a few toys and set out on icy streets to find the girls. They were more overjoyed than any two children he had ever seen. When he got home, the food from Christmas dinner was all gone, his own children had scattered to play with their new toys and the company had left for home. His wife offered to fix him a sandwich and told him how sorry she was that his Christmas had been spoiled. "Spoiled?", he said, "I've just had the best Christmas of my whole life."

The doctor has been playing Santa every year since then to children who live on the streets - not out of sympathy, but because it makes HIM so happy. Like virtue, the emulation of Christ is its own reward.