I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

trying to do a quote thing

Because not everyone believes in the soul. Keep in mind that as real as it may be to you, it's nonsense to someone else. When you get into the legality and science (medical and I guess legal) there are divergent definitions of "baby", and there are divergent definitions of "murder".

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Ok, so to some people there is no soul, but still doesn't justify killing a person, soul or no soul. Murder is murder. Black and white, there is no gray. It's the people who put no value on a human life who come up with the gray areas of what is murder.

One other thing. If you don't believe the statistics, how about believing me? I am a personal witness to the violence perpetrated against pro-lifers. I have been spat on, pushed, kicked, cursed, had people bare their breasts and rear ends in the hopes that I would be offended and leave,

Well, Sweetie, you aren't the ONLY personal witness here. My big, blue sign and I were there, too. Along with a big bunch of gay guys (ACT UP LA) who wouldn't have had sex with a woman if she PAID them, and a bunch of husbands there with their wives...so there goes the rapist theory. (And while I've never been asked to blow up a church, I suspect that a number of "good, God-fearing Christians of the KKK-ilk HAVE been involved in such activities.) Not to mention that your source TOTALLY lacks credibility.

If what you are saying is that you were pushed when you placed your body between a fully competent woman and her medical care because YOU assumed she MIGHT be having something done that YOU didn't approve of, then you--and any other self-serving, my-values-determine-what-you-can-do self-righteous pawn of the religion-factories--are really lucky you weren't in MY way. I'll go to my medical care regardless of what anyone else thinks...and anyone who decides to sacrifice their body to stop me may well find their body...you know...sacrificed. But that was THEIR choice.

Oh...and anyone who thinks that the only service provided at those clinics is abortion is a moron.

And WWJD? He'd provide free medical care to those who needed it and hang out with a hooker, last I heard.

I watched Bill O'Reilly last night, that girl's story almost made me cry. And this is going on all the time with that doctor, SICK.

Oh, yeah...and almost ALL of the anti-choice groups are--when you pin them down--also anti-contraception. It just that most of their blind followers, don't pin them down.

I watched Bill O'Reilly last night, that girl's story almost made me cry. And this is going on all the time with that doctor, SICK.

So, it was the abortion that screwed up her life? Not the fact that she was 20-weeks pregnant at age 14? I'm confused.

Ok, so to some people there is no soul, but still doesn't justify killing a person, soul or no soul. Murder is murder. Black and white, there is no gray. It's the people who put no value on a human life who come up with the gray areas of what is murder.

There is absolute gray, and black, and white. A lot of it centers around when your definition (often defined through a religious proclamation) of life begins.

And - wow - were we speaking of being judgmental? You are now qualified to say that I (or anyone else) has no value for human life, because I believe there are gray areas? What qualifies you to make that ruling, the fact that you're LDS?

If abortion is not for you, don't have one, period. I just can't see being FORCED by the state to remain pregnant if you don't want to be. [/color]But like you said Alexandra, DECREASE THE UNWANTED PREGNANCIES! People need education and BC availibility. I hate to say this and burst anyone's bubble, but outlawing legal, safe, and available abortion will NOT stop people from having non-procreational sex. I have a son that was VERY, VERY planned and still think women (including myself) should have control over their own bodies. I don't know how someone can be judged if you are not in their situation. I in NO way think it s/b used a BC (like my ex-family member who had 6, that we know of), but she's a plain moron to begin with.

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The problem is, IN MY OPINION, because it IS legal and always an option, it DOES become a method of birth control.

The problem is, IN MY OPINION, because it IS legal and always an option, it DOES become a method of birth control.

But since it isn't YOUR birth control, why is it YOUR concern?

Do you have any other solutions other than adoption? A lot of people aren't going to put up for baby for adoption.

I've never quite understood this line of reasoning....people will not consider adoption as the best solution to an unplanned pregnancy...why?

Wouldn't you feel better about yourself, knowing that you gave your child life, and gave another woman who desperately wanted to be a mom that opportunity?

Is it just the convenience factor? The selfish motives, it's-all-about-me mentality....I don't want to go thru a whole pregnancy and get nothing out of it? Or it would be "too hard" on me to carry a baby to term, only to give it up for adoption?

I am the mother of an adopted child. If abortion had been legal when he was born, I would not have my Tommy. The thought makes my blood run cold.

I'm confused.

I agree...

But since it isn't YOUR birth control, why is it YOUR concern?

It's not my concern, I was just stating my opinion. That's still allowed here, right??

I agree...

Thank you...a demonstrable lack of logic ALWAYS confuses me...glad you were able to see yours.

In the criminal justice system of most states, the murder of a pregnant woman constitutes the killing of TWO people - not one. I don't understand how that statute can co-exist with the notion that it's NOT illegal for a doctor to kill the same child via abortion. Is it because the mom wanted a live baby in the first instance, but not in the second? Maybe that's logical to some people, but not to me. If a woman is to be allowed total control over what happens to HER body, then why are other laws allowed to intervene, but not laws against abortion? It's not okay - legally speaking - for a woman to use her body to make a living (prostitution). It's not legal for a woman to abuse her own body with drugs.

To me, the it's-my-body argument doesn't hold Water. Unless, of course, you are a TRUE advocate of freedom of choice - in all matters of the body.

Calene, well put.

In the criminal justice system of most states, the murder of a pregnant woman constitutes the killing of TWO people - not one. I don't understand how that statute can co-exist with the notion that it's NOT illegal for a doctor to kill the same child via abortion. Is it because the mom wanted a live baby in the first instance, but not in the second? Maybe that's logical to some people, but not to me. If a woman is to be allowed total control over what happens to HER body, then why are other laws allowed to intervene, but not laws against abortion? It's not okay - legally speaking - for a woman to use her body to make a living (prostitution). It's not legal for a woman to abuse her own body with drugs.

To me, the it's-my-body argument doesn't hold water. Unless, of course, you are a TRUE advocate of freedom of choice - in all matters of the body.

Carlene, I couldn't agree with you more! Well said!