So with the New Health Care Reform passed through the House. Who is for or against it?? Why or why not?

I am not in favor. My opinion (whether it's right or wrong) is why should we pay for the people who are too lazy to get a job just so they can have health insurance? Now it's different if they are disabled and unable to work. But these people who won't get off their butts to get a job shouldn't get subsidized health care that we, tax payers, are paying for!

Edited November 8, 200916 yr by TN_girl21

Excellent post, Cleo'sM!!! The Fox media rehtoric was plain to see.

Patty,since you and i seem to be "going at each other", I do appreciate the debate because really i dont have anyone knowledgable to debate with(7-11 guy).

I don't feel that we are 'going at each other'. It's just a differing of opinions on the subjects at hand. I don't take offense to anyone who posts here. (usually). I hope no one takes offense to me as well. This is never my intent. to hurt or offend anyone.

I just want to say i probably do lean towards obamas views but i became interested in politics during the 2nd GW election and i did vote for him which taught me that i probably wont vote for lame duck candidates too many times.It will depend on who else is running of course.But i definitely didnt want Kerry either. 2 major differences i have with dems, global warming(biggest scam, money for corrupt, useless United nations). U.N. ok 3, Diplomacy with iran.,ok here is one more, not as much support for Israel as bush admin.(our only true ally in the world).In some of the post im referring to "you" as rep,not you personally.

I do that as well.

And some remarks are made to dramatize the articles"typical republican"(example)(moral party) there really are no moral people in politics,at least at the federal level,I try to vote for who will benefit me best at the time.I dont expect everyone to agree because everyone has different needs, wants and beliefs. Thanks again for the healthy debate and dont take our differences to heart, You have to admit,its fun reading other people posts about politics and giving a response based on your immediate emotions at that time (then reading later and feeling bad about possibly offending someone).But again thanks for the healthy debate.

You are welcome. I enjoy posting with you and the others here, even if most of the time there are none who seem to stand with me on my views.

I'm calling you out on this PG. I want you to cite specific language in any of the proposed healthcare reform bills where it says the plan was to have ONLY a government option and put all the other private plans out of business.

This was not stated by anyone specifically, but it is what would have happened if there was a public option. Anyone can see that down the road. Obama was NOT going to tell you that. Let's face it, if there is a public ins. plan out there that was not going to make a profit it would be the best plan at the lowest price. It would not take long for all the people to get on it. This would leave all the other ins. companies with having to raise their premium fees in order to make a profit because now they have less people insured with them. Also, what business would not choose the public option for their people if there was that choice? ALL businesses will try to save money if they can so that their own paychecks could grow. Eventually, over time, the public option would push other ins. companies to go out of business and/or fail. Even Obama admitted, during his campaign, that this country would take a while to be able to achieve his goal of government HC for all. It would start out as a 'choice'. He said," You can keep your ins. company if you like it." He said that because he knew that you could "at first". He didn't go on to tell you that eventually, though, all that will be available is the gov. plan to 'choose' from.

If you say that it wasn't in the bill, but that was their intent, then it's just so much more BS.

Fact: The public option was going to be available to those who were uninsured. That was about 5% of the people.

And available to anyone who wanted to purchase it.

Fact: The government already runs healthcare via medicaid and medicare. Neither one has put the private insurance companies out of business and medicare is very popular among the recipients.

So, if they already had a plan set up for the poor and the elderly, why did they need a public option for the rest of Americans? How bogus. Just allow those without ins. to get on the plan that was already instated.

Why not? Because that was NOT their goal. Their goal was to have EVERYONE on it.

Fact: The republicans used every procedural roadblock at their disposal to stop this bill, causing delay after delay and requiring the 1AM senate vote in order to meet required timelines.

Thank GOD!

Fact: The democrats are now using procedures at THEIR disposal to get this bill reconciled. Since the republicans have nothing to offer but obstructions, there is no need for them to be included.

Their procedures are corrupt and dishonest and costing the rest of us millions! Also, the Dems are pushing their agenda despite what the people want. It is clear that the majority didn't want the public option and still don't want the reform, but they are STILL pushing to get it. Even when they know full well, that it's not what we want. They are saying "We know the public doesn't want this, but we know what's best for these stupid people."

Fact: If you think that when the republicans were in the majority that they didn't execute behind door deals with special interest groups then you are beyond naive.

All you needed to know about healthcare reform to be opposed to it was that it was supported by Pres. Obama and the democrats. Who are you trying to fool?

I'm trying to fool noone. And don't speak for me, please.

Originally Posted by Cleo's Mom

I'm calling you out on this PG. I want you to cite specific language in any of the proposed healthcare reform bills where it says the plan was to have ONLY a government option and put all the other private plans out of business.

This was not stated by anyone specifically, but it is what would have happened if there was a public option. Anyone can see that down the road. Really? I know that isn't going to happen. Just those who are opposed to Obama "saw" that!! So, that's hardly fact. Obama was NOT going to tell you that. Let's face it, if there is a public ins. plan out there that was not going to make a profit it would be the best plan at the lowest price. Well, there you've said it. The best plan at the lowest price. Who could oppose that? Oh, I know. Those who advocate for the insurance industry. That means: all of the republicans, Lieberman and the DINOS. It would not take long for all the people to get on it. This would leave all the other ins. companies with having to raise their premium fees in order to make a profit because now they have less people insured with them.Or here's a thought: Lower your premiums, offer better service and reduce your obscene profits. Also, what business would not choose the public option for their people if there was that choice? ALL businesses will try to save money if they can so that their own paychecks could grow. Again, sounds like a win-win situation to me!! Eventually, over time, the public option would push other ins. companies to go out of business and/or fail. First of all, that wouldn't happen. If we take the profit motive out of healthcare, which is what should happen, then insurance companies would have to compete or find another type of insurance to cheat people with: disability, long-term care, life, etc..Any number of types of insurances in which they can collect premiums and deny claims. Even Obama admitted, during his campaign, that this country would take a while to be able to achieve his goal of government HC for all.If you mean access to affordable healthcare for everyone, yes he said that. If you mean he said that he wanted the government to take over the healthcare in this country I WANT DOCUMENTATION OF THAT - A VIDEO WHERE HE SAYS THAT. It would start out as a 'choice'. He said," You can keep your ins. company if you like it." He said that because he knew that you could "at first". He didn't go on to tell you that eventually, though, all that will be available is the gov. plan to 'choose' from.

Fact: The government already runs healthcare via medicaid and medicare. Neither one has put the private insurance companies out of business and medicare is very popular among the recipients.

So, if they already had a plan set up for the poor and the elderly, why did they need a public option for the rest of Americans? How bogus. Just allow those without ins. to get on the plan that was already instated.

They tried to have a medicare buy-in which was a good idea. Opposed by the republicans and the DINOS.

Their procedures are corrupt and dishonest and costing the rest of us millions! Also, the Dems are pushing their agenda despite what the people want. It is clear that the majority didn't want the public option and still don't want the reform, but they are STILL pushing to get it. Even when they know full well, that it's not what we want. They are saying "We know the public doesn't want this, but we know what's best for these stupid people."

Actually when the healthcare bill is explained to people they support it and most people supported the public option because they knew it was a cost cutting measure and would help to keep the greedy private insurance companies honest. People support not being denied coverage for pre-existing conditions, they support being able to keep your coverage from job to job, they support your not being able to be dropped if you get sick.

I will say that those who support healthcare haven't done a good enough PR job. The party of no, though, has gotten out there with their lies and buzzwords, though.

Democratic presidential nominee Sen.

Barack Obama (IL) has proposed an ambitious

plan to reform America’s health care sector.

According to his campaign website, “Obama

will sign a universal health care plan into law by

the end of his first term in office. His plan will

provide affordable, quality health care coverage

for every American.” (his plan was the single payer plan. Then he went for a public option when he knew the people wouldn't go for not having a choice in their ins. company)

He has repeatedly signaled his support for a

single-payer health care system. In 2003,

Obama stated, “I happen to be a proponent of

a single-payer, universal health care plan.” At a

town hall meeting in August 2008, Obama

responded to a question about the single-payer

concept, “If I were designing a system from

scratch, I would probably go ahead with a single-

payer system.” He then hinted that, once

implemented, his reform plan could take Krugman

and like-minded supporters where they

ultimately want to go: “my attitude is let’s build

up the system we got . . . [and] we may . . . over

time . . . decide that there are other ways for us

to provide care more effectively.

Single-payer health insurance collects all medical fees and then pays for all services through a single government (or government-related) source. In wealthy nations, this kind of publicly-managed health insurance is typically extended to all citizens and legal residents.

(from the washington wire)Barack Obama said he would consider embracing a single-payer health-care system, beloved by liberals, as his plan for broader coverage evolves over time.

Listen up. Single-payer health care might just work. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

“If I were designing a system from scratch, I would probably go ahead with a single-payer system,” Obama told some 1,800 people at a town-hall style meeting on the economy.

A single-payer system would eliminate private insurance companies and put a Medicare-like system into place where the government pays all health-care bills with tax dollars.

Many liberals have long embraced the coverage plan, saying it would cover everyone, take the profit out of health insurance and allow for greater efficiencies. But Republicans cringe at such deep government involvement in the private sector, calling it socialized medicine. And many Democrats, including Obama and former rival Hillary Clinton, have taken a much more moderate approach.

Obama’s health-care plan aims for universal coverage by offering a new government-run marketplace where Americans could buy insurance, mostly from private plans. He would offer subsidies to individuals and to small business owners that offer their workers coverage. His plan also would require that parents get insurance for their kids. And he aims to lower health-care costs to make coverage more affordable. His plan includes one small step toward single payer. His new marketplace would create a new government-run plan, like Medicare, to compete against the private plans.

But Obama repeated that he rejects an immediate shift to a single-payer system. “Given that a lot of people work for insurance companies, a lot of people work for HMOs. You’ve got a whole system of institutions that have been set up,” he said at a roundtable discussion with women Monday morning after a voter asked, “Why not single payer?”

“People don’t have time to wait,” Obama said. “They need relief now. So my attitude is let’s build up the system we got, let’s make it more efficient, we may be over time—as we make the system more efficient and everybody’s covered—decide that there are other ways for us to provide care more effectively.”

Fact: The government already runs healthcare via medicaid and medicare. Neither one has put the private insurance companies out of business and medicare is very popular among the recipients.

That's because there are millions of people who are not on those plans that are purchasing ins. from private companies. Take them and put them on the gov. run public option, that he had planned initially, and there would no longer be any private HI companies.

Yep and they don't let any facts get in the way of repeating those buzz words and phrases over and over.

I don't understand how middle class Americans can support the insurance companies like they do

Middle class Americans have all the evidence before them, including years of experience with insurance companies controlling the health care system in this country, yet many of them have jumped on the anti health care change bandwagon. It is to their detriment and they are still repeating the buzz words and phrases.

I gotta give it to the Republicans. They know how to use fear, intimidation, false accusations, buzz words and misrepresentations to influence Americans. But for the life of me I can't understand why some Americans don't seem to be aware of it.

Well I guess to answer that, one must remember that there are Americans who think that the Bush Administration took over AFTER 9/11. Scary, ain't it?

Single payer would be better than what we have, but I'm with Obama - a wonderful universal health care plan would be fabulous for America.

So many Americans believe the negative hype about universal health care instead of understanding how great it could be. What a shame.

Yep and they don't let any facts get in the way of repeating those buzz words and phrases over and over.

What buzz words and phrases are you talking about?

If you don't recognize them without my help, that explains a lot.

What is relevant to the debate about healthcare now is what Pres. Obama has proposed since this issue has been in focus (last summer). He has not proposed single payer, and has actually been lukewarm about the public option.

What he wants is:

1) All americans covered

2) Affordable choices

3) Financial help for those who can't afford it

4) No denying pre-existing conditions

5) No dropping someone who gets sick

6) Portability of your insurance from job to job

7) Cost controls

These are not all the points, just the main ones.

AND HERE'S SOMETHING THAT YOU NEED TO KNOW - WHEN YOU USE SOME FANTASY ARGUEMENT THAT THE PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES MIGHT GO OUT OF BUSINESS - I DON'T CARE IF THEY DO. WE WOULD ALL BE BETTER OFF IF THEY DID. SO STOP USING THAT ARGUEMENT BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT HAPPEN. IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING IN MY BOOK.

Bjean, it was my bariatric dr. who told me im healthier than most etc. My regular dr. actually recemended it to me. Ive been researching it for about 1 1/2 2 years. Mostly on Lt. Ive read just about every post on here, complications,success.Now i mostly stay on success topics but the comp. posts are the ones stored in my head, now that i have my date theyre the ones keeping me up at night. Im trying to keep positive. As far as healthy what i mean is, when i went to seminars for Lb to 3 different hospitals most of the people where in wheel chairs,couldnt walk, etc. Right now im six one, 330# I know youve heard it before but i dont look it. At 1 seminar i was leaving the hospital and a woman in the elevator told me i dont look heavy enough to do this, she was surprised when i told her i was around 330#. I guess im trying to say i carry it well. I do have high blood pressure(controlled), sleep apnea.It made me wonder when my dr. said i was healthy. I have never experienced any health problems(heart attack, shortness of breath, diabetes). I want to control what i already have and prevent future problems. Im 38, my mom passed away 6 years ago in mid 50s. My dad had bypass surgery 2 years ago and has had diabetes for 10-12 years. my moms mom passed away at 54 years old.they didnt have the option of Lb. Ive been on Lb for some time but i just recently started posting, hence the long posts one after another. I appreciate you responding so quickly, i feel better i thought maybe you had personal horror stories about your experiences.

Also Pattys point about public option putting health insurers out of business,whats the difference if its a health insurer or General motors, Chrysler etc. my point being, republicans said if

GM, Chrysler Aig, couldnt stay afloat it was because of their own doing, they didnt deserve help. If an insurance company or any other cant stay afloat because they cant compete its "because their own doing also". Why is it good for one company and not another, like you said about car companies, only strong survive and if they fail another will be there to take over.Watch out what you ask for because you might just get it! The healthcare now is a monopoly,companies joining becoming bigger but fewer. they are dictating ever risihng costs. If i as a plumber am not competitive, i wont be in business long.

Sorry im dominating tyhe boards today. I was just wondering what ever happened to "Joe the plumber"?(plant)John Mccain ruined his career. Sara Palin and Mccain dont get along, why isnt the moral sean hannity helping him out he was always on the show when it benefited hannity and now he has been thrown to the wolves. Joe was going to buy his bosses company(according to him)he wasnt even a plumber, and when his boss called him on it he changed the story to, when his boss retired he would buy it.After all the hoo-ha about taxing p-eople over $250000. If i could make that money i would gladly pay higher taxes.Sorry this had nothing to do about anything, im done babbling.

What is relevant to the debate about healthcare now is what Pres. Obama has proposed since this issue has been in focus (last summer). He has not proposed single payer, and has actually been lukewarm about the public option.

What he wants is:

1) All americans covered

2) Affordable choices

3) Financial help for those who can't afford it

4) No denying pre-existing conditions

5) No dropping someone who gets sick

6) Portability of your insurance from job to job

7) Cost controls

These are not all the points, just the main ones

Sure, you say that now because the public option has been killed. He has always prefered and wanted a single payer system here with the gov. in control fully. He is settling because he knows it's not what the rest of us want. If those things you list were what he wanted most of all, we would not have had this debate at all. It was because he wanted the public option that pissed everyone off, and you know it.

He could care less about wanting those without ins covered, cause if he did, he could have allowed those without ins. to get on medicaid, (or is it medicare?, I get those 2 mixed up) by raising the income guidelines for the program. And then left the rest of us alone. But, as you know, that was not his goal. His goal was a single payer system. Affordable choices could have come by opening up the insurance sales between states. Simple. But, no, because that was not his goal, it was a single payer public option ONLY for everyone. (NO option) All of your list could have been accomplished without a public option. But no, because it was not his ultimate goal.