There was a story on the news about this, and I thought it would be an iteresting debate. I am undecided.

It is actually a good thing for everyone that faith in Jesus alone will get us to heaven. (but I understand that you were just being nasty to me again with your comment 'good thing for you, eh?') so, I will just ignore that.

I believe that I have already (stated in a recent post to you) that if I have said anything to offend you personally, I apologize. When others ask me a question on an issue, (like 'Should prostitution be legalized?' for example) I give my answer just like everybody else. If in giving the answer, I state that I believe I am correct because I base my decisions in accordance with what God has to say on the subject in the bible, then why does that make you so angry to the point where you call me judgmental and hypocritical? If you reread my quote you commented on lastly, you will see that I said that 'the person may become convicted'. I did not mean by me, but by the Holyspirit who is the only one who can bring conviction. Therefore, I am not doing the Holyspirits work, as you call it. You are right, though, when you say that pointing out the sins and mistakes of others is not the christians job. Was there a real, live prostitute on this forum that I missed? Or was it simply a question concerning them. To tell everyone here why I believe it shouldn't be legalized is not pointing out anyones sins or mistakes. It is telling my reasons for what I believe. I'm sorry if it offends you or anyone else that God (not Pattygreen)calls it a sin. I was just quoting God, not judging anyone.

Lastly... you,too, state that you are a christian. So why all the anger in your posts? I have read some of your posts, and haven't come across anywhere where you are 'spreading the good word to those who do not know Christ' as you say I am not doing.

It is actually a good thing for everyone that faith in Jesus alone will get us to heaven. (but I understand that you were just being nasty to me again with your comment 'good thing for you, eh?') so, I will just ignore that.

I believe that I have already (stated in a recent post to you) that if I have said anything to offend you personally, I apologize. When others ask me a question on an issue, (like 'Should prostitution be legalized?' for example) I give my answer just like everybody else. If in giving the answer, I state that I believe I am correct because I base my decisions in accordance with what God has to say on the subject in the bible, then why does that make you so angry to the point where you call me judgmental and hypocritical? If you reread my quote you commented on lastly, you will see that I said that 'the person may become convicted'. I did not mean by me, but by the Holyspirit who is the only one who can bring conviction. Therefore, I am not doing the Holyspirits work, as you call it. You are right, though, when you say that pointing out the sins and mistakes of others is not the christians job. Was there a real, live prostitute on this forum that I missed? Or was it simply a question concerning them. To tell everyone here why I believe it shouldn't be legalized is not pointing out anyones sins or mistakes. It is telling my reasons for what I believe. I'm sorry if it offends you or anyone else that God (not Pattygreen)calls it a sin. I was just quoting God, not judging anyone.

Lastly... you,too, state that you are a christian. So why all the anger in your posts? I have read some of your posts, and haven't come across anywhere where you are 'spreading the good word to those who do not know Christ' as you say I am not doing.

Patty, in order for me to be angry at you, you have to matter to me. With all due respect, you don't.

How many times do we have to hear from you how you feel about prostitution in relation to your belief or in relation to God? We heard it. We got it. Enough already. Get off your throne already.

all I can say to you, Donna, is 'you are a rude person.' I hope you feel good about yourself and your insensitive comments.

In order to live with morals, you need to have a moral code to follow. So, 'where does your code come from?' would be a better way to phrase the question.

Heh... you just suggested that one cannot be moral without xtianity (amazingly rude) yet this is a small example of the morality of your bible:

Bible Vulgarities & Obscenities

Note: What is and what is not vulgar or obscene is, of course, an individual matter. By current Christian standards, however, the verses that follow would likely be considered inappropriate, if not vulgar or obscene, were they in any setting other than the Bible.

GE 4:17 Cain's wife would likely have been his sister. (Note, assuming that Cain was, say, 100 years older than his wife, his wife could possibly have been a niece rather than a sister.)

(KJV) GE 17:10-14, 23-27, 21:4, 34:15, 17, 22, 24, EX 4:26, 12:44, 48, LE 12:3, DT 10:16, 30:6, JS 5:2-5, 7-8, JE 4:4, 9:25, LK 1:59, LK 2:21, JN 7:22-23, AC 7:8, 10:45, 11:2, 15:1, 5, 24, 16:3, RO 2:25-29, 3:1, 30, 4:9-12, 15:8, CO 7:18-19, GA 2:3, 7-9, 12, 5:2-3, 6, 11, 6:12-13, 15, EP 2:11, PH 3:3, 3:5, CN 2:11, 3:11, 4:11, TS 1:10

Various references to circumcision, some quite vulgar.

(KJV)GE 17:11, 14, 23-25, EX 4:25, LE 12:3, DE 10:16, JS 5:3, SA 18:25, 27, SA 3:14, JE 4:4, HA 2:16

Various references to foreskins, some rather vulgar.

GE 9:22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness.

GE 19:4-8 A group of sexually depraved men demands that Lot turn over to them his two male visitors. Lot offers his two virgin daughters instead.

GE 19:30-38 Lot's daughters have sexual intercourse with him while he is drunk and both become pregnant by their father.

GE 24:2-9, 47:29 "... put your hand under my thigh, and I will make you swear by the Lord ...." (Note: This means "put your hand under my testicles," which is the manner in which oaths were taken at the time; "testament," "testify," and "testicle" have the same root.)

GE 29:16-30 Jacob marries both Leah and her sister Rachel. He has children by both Leah and Rachel's maid Bilhah, but Rachel remains barren. Due apparently to Rachel's generosity to her husband, the Lord eventually allows Rachel to conceive.

GE 34:1-2 Shechem defiles Dinah.

GE 34:13-29 Hamor, his son, and the men of their village agree to be circumcised so as to be allowed to marry the daughters of the Israelites. On the third day, "when they were sore," the Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of the village, and plunder their wealth, taking their wives and children, thus getting revenge for the defiling of Dinah.

GE 35:22 (KJV) "Reuben went and lay with Bilhah, his fathers concubine."

GE 38:9 Onan "spills his seed" on the ground rather than fulfill his obligation to his widowed sister-in-law to father a child by her.

GE 38:13-19 Tamar plays the role of a harlot in order to have sexual intercourse with her father-in-law. She conceives and twins are born.

GE 39:7-23 The wife of Joseph's master tries to get Joseph to go to bed with her. He refuses, and flees leaving his "garment in her hand." She claims that Joseph tried to rape her, and Joseph ends up imprisoned.

EX 20:26 "Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon."

LE 15:16-19 (KJV) "And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even. The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even. And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean ...."

LE 21:20, 22:24 (References to testicles, or "stones" in the KJV.)

NU 31:17-18 "... all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Note: How did they determine which girls were virgins, and what did they do with them after they kept them alive for themselves? This is not a pretty picture.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty of which thirty-two are set aside as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 21:10-14 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to kidnap "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their trial wives. If, after having sexual relations, a man has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 23:1 (KJV) "He that is wounded in the stones [testicles], or hath his privy member [penis] cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."

DT 28:15, 30 If you do not obey the voice of the Lord, the Lord will cause another man to "lie with" your wife-to-be.

JS 5:3 "... the Hill of Foreskins."

JG 8:30-31 Gideon had many wives as well as a concubine.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 21:11-12 "This is what you shall do; every male and every woman that has lain with man you shall utterly destroy. And they found ... four hundred young virgins who had not known man by lying with him; and they brought them to the camp ...." (Again, how did they determine which girls were virgins? This is not a pretty picture.)

JG 21:14-23 The 400 virgins captured above prove to be insufficient, so the Benjaminites hide in the vineyards and kidnap "the daughters of Shiloh" as they come out to dance and celebrate.

SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts."

SA 18:27 So that David might be allowed to marry the king's daughter, the king asks David to bring him 100 Philistine foreskins. David does the job right and brings the king not 100, but 200, foreskins of murdered Philistines.

SA 25:22, 25:34, 1KI 14:10, 16:10-11, 21:21, 2KI 9:8 (KJV) "... him that pisseth ...."

SA 19:24 "And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night."

SA 3:7 (KJV) "Wherefore hast thou gone in unto [a euphemism for sexual intercourse] my fathers concubine?"

SA 5:13, 20:3 David had many concubines.

SA 6:14, 16, 20-23 David dances and exposes himself to his maids. (His wife, Michal rebukes him for having done so, and as a consequence she is made barren.)

SA 12:11-12 The Lord is going to punish David for his sin by taking his wives and causing his neighbor to have sexual relations with them in public.

SA 13:1-14 King David's son, Amnon, rapes his half-sister, Tamar.

SA 16:22 Absalom "went into his father's concubines" in the sight of all Israel.

KI 1:1-4 David was old, and although covered with clothes, could not get warm. A beautiful, young virgin is brought in to be his concubine and nurse. But alas, he was so old and infirm that he "knew her not."

KI 11:3 Solomon (the wisest man ever) had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

KI 18:27, IS 36:12 (KJV) "... eat their own dung and drink their own piss." (Note: Although correctly translated according to the oldest Hebrew manuscripts, piss and pisseth have been re-translated to something more "godly" in all versions since the KJV.)

CH 11:21 Rehoboam had eighteen wives and sixty concubines.

ES 2:2-17 King Ahasuerus holds a sexual contest with "fair young virgins" to pick a new Queen (after having been spurned by Queen Vashti).

PR 5:19 (KJV) "... Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love."

SO 1:13 "My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh, that lies between my breasts."

SO 2:3 "I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

SO 2:6, 8:3 "His left hand is under my head, and his right hand embraces me."

SO 2:16, 6:3 "My lover is mine and I am his. He browses among the lilies."

SO 4:5, 7:3 "Your two breasts are like two fawns ...."

SO 5:4 (KJV) "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him."

SO 7:1-2 "... the joints of your thighs are like jewels ...."

SO 7:7-9 "You are stately as a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its branches. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine ...."

SO 8:10 "... and my breasts were like towers."

IS 3:17 "The Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will uncover their secret parts."

IS 13:15 "Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 20:2-4 The Lord himself apparently commands his servant to go naked for three years.

IS 57:8 "Behind your doors and doorpost ... you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love, and you looked on their nakedness."

LA 4:21 "... thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked."

EZ 4:12 (KJV) "And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread ...."

EZ 4:15 (KJV) "... I have given thee cows dung for mans dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith."

EZ 16:7 "... You grew up and ... arrived at full maidenhood; your breasts were formed ... yet you were naked and bare."

EZ 16:8 "Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine."

EZ 16:22 "... you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood."

EZ 16:36 "... your shame was laid bare and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotries with your lovers ...."

EZ 16:37 "Therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you took pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness."

EZ 16:39 "... they will strip you of your clothes, ... and leave you naked and bare."

EZ 23:3 "They played the harlot in Egypt; they played the harlot in their youth; there were their breasts fondled and their virgin bosoms handled." Or, as the KJV puts it: "they bruised the teats of their virginity."

EZ 23:8 (KJV) "... in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her."

EZ 23:10 "They stripped her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword."

EZ 23:17 (KJV) "And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them ...."

EZ 23:18 (KJV) "So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: ...."

EZ 23:20-21 (RSV) "Yet she increased her harlotry ... and doted on her paramours there, whose members [i.e., sexual organs] were like those of asses and whose issue was like that of horses. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts."

EZ 23:29 (KJV) "... and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms."

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 1:2 (KJV) "And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom.'"

HO 2:2 (KJV) "... let her ... put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts ...."

HO 2:3 "Otherwise I will strip her naked and make her as bare as the day she was born."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

AM 2:16 " Even the bravest warriors will flee naked on that day,' declares the Lord."

MI 1:8 "I will go stripped and naked."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

NA 3:5 " I am against you,' says the Lord ... , and will lift up your skirts over your face; I will show the nations your nakedness and kingdoms your shame.'"

HA 2:15 "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies."

MA 2:3 The Lord says that he will spread dung upon the faces of the priests.

MK 14:51-52 A young man discards his clothing and flees naked.

JN 21:7 (KJV) "Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fishers coat unto him, for he was naked, and did cast himself into the sea."

AC 19:13-16 Seven Jewish exorcists are overpowered by a man with a demon and flee naked and wounded.

RE 16:15 When Jesus comes again, he will come like a thief in the night so that those who do not have their clothes [on] will go naked and be shamefully exposed.

RE 17:16 "They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

Well, while I have not been a fan of Patty's attitude, I will say that the previous Biblical Quotes and statements have a lot of textural and contextural problems, and are not good evidence of.... whatever the author was trying to convey.

I will add, however, that if you want to use those texts out of context, fine... there are a lot of humans in the Bible. No one ever said people in the Bible, even those considered great people in the Bible, were perfect.

But trying to "disprove" the Bible doesn't do this discussion much good.

...Also, refering to your previous post: You have it backwards. the bible is only contradictory to unbelievers, those who haven't read it from the beginning to the end. (most unbelievers will not take the time to read it in its full content for it is a long book)

No, actually it is you that has this wrong. Most atheists I know have read the bible cover to cover (this is a great cause of atheism for many). Most xtians I know have never read the bible cover to cover.

And it is the unbeliever who cherrypicks it. (for they want to live according to their own ways and not God's ways and they therefore pick and choose the scriptures they want to abide by and those that they don't)

Surely you are not serious. Someone else suggested you think through your posts before posting them. I agree.

An unbeliever (atheist) lacks belief in your god. If they do not believe your god exists since there isn't a shred of evidence he does exist, it does not make a bit of sense to suggest we lack belief because we don't want to live according to scripture. One either believes or they don't.

Then you go on and say that we pick and choose which scriptures we wish to follow. ??? We don't follow your bible, we follow morality.

You did that in your past post when you spoke about slavery in the bible. God spoke of slavery in the bible because it was what man chose to do and was doing, but he never approved of it.

Actually, he did approve. I collect antiquarian books on a couple of topics, slavery being one of them. I have a book from the mid 1800s that was a very popular book in its day and it is basically showing how your god supports slavery with a ton of scripture to prove it. Your god most certainly did support owning another human being, what he did not support was the abuse of slaves.

You need to read your bible.

There are not too many people who have read God's words (in full, not bits and pieces) who were able to walk away from its teaching unchanged and believing it.

Again, you are wrong. Most atheists I know read the bible and realized how silly it is and they walked away changing from xtian to atheist.

Edited January 18, 200917 yr by WASaBubbleButt

if you would like to hear my opinions on gluttony, they are the same as God's opinion on the subject. It is a sin and It is wrong to eat more than your body needs. Oh my! I hope noone feels I was bashing the bible into their face or casting judgement on them!!

Okay...

You believe in laws limiting sexual behavior but do you support laws limiting the amount of food you can consume?

you love them because you are called to, or do you love them because you feel superior to them and they make you feel better about yourself?

I have to tell you, it is refreshing to see a believer that recognizes this behavior!

You bringing up the "born again" thing made me remember.....

Many years ago, my oldest DD was in Kindergarten, and I was VERY pregnant again. Soon the natural question come up about how the babies (twins) were going to get out. I told her a limited version, and yet all the while sticking to the truth.

Her eyes got pretty big and she told me if I didn't know we could go to the library and find out!

I assured her that it would work, that when you grow up your body changes and will allow things like that to happen. That satisfied her and the subject was discussed off and on for days.

Then one morning standing in the bathroom doing her hair for school she tells me very seriously "that man that talked at church last time is really stupid!" I was shocked and ask her why she thought that, and she oh so seriously in her 5 year old new found birth wisdom informed me SHE NEVER wanted to be born again!

Poor thing I am thinking of what is running in her mind....the born again Christian speaking at church must have been 6' and 250 pounds, and he was born again? Coming out of where her Mommy assured her the babies would? Not her! No way, no how!!

Thanks for the funny memory!!

Kat

Priceless!

My Mom used to tell the story about my sister. She had the "where do babies come from" lecture with my sis and my sis seemed to take it well. No big deal.

A few days later my parents were in the bedroom getting ready to go out to dinner. My sis walked in, sat on the bed while my dad was fixing his tie and suddenly her eyes were wide open, jaw dropped, she turned to my Mom and exclaimed, "You mean he does THAT to YOU?" It finally sank in.

I guess my Dad, not missing a step turned and walked right out of the room. He wasn't a great deal of help that day. ;o)

Well, while I have not been a fan of Patty's attitude, I will say that the previous Biblical Quotes and statements have a lot of textural and contextural problems, and are not good evidence of.... whatever the author was trying to convey.

I will add, however, that if you want to use those texts out of context, fine... there are a lot of humans in the Bible. No one ever said people in the Bible, even those considered great people in the Bible, were perfect.

But trying to "disprove" the Bible doesn't do this discussion much good.

I understand your point, but... if one is to draw morality from a book not everyone would agree that there is a great deal of morality in that book.

Have you ever seen God's Hit List? It's a list of all the people he killed or had killed. We can justify that and say he's God and gets to do any darn thing he wishes, but it doesn't make him a very nice God.

Okay...

You believe in laws limiting sexual behavior but do you support laws limiting the amount of food you can consume?

Yes, I believe glottony is a sin. (one sin of which I and all of us here was committing every day, before lapband) There is a vast difference between an 'unbelievers' sins and a 'believers' sins. Not that God does not hate both alike, the difference is not in the sin, but in the way God treats it. Here is a father who sends his son and his hired servant to do a piece of work. They are lazy and inefficient, and do not do the work. He bears with them, and tries them again, but it is no use. His son and his servant are good for nothing, his son perhaps the worse of the two. Now what does he do? He discharges the servant. He puts him out of his house. He will have nothing more to do with him. But does he discharge his son? Does he send him away from the house? Does he disinherit him? Nothing of the kind. He may rebuke him, cut off his allowance, punish him worse than he punished the servant, but he will not send him away because he is his son. We see then, that 'sonship' is a real thing. Is sonship then a shield from the punishment of sin? Does my sonship make it safer for me to sin? Oh no! It simply gives me the blessed privilege of having an Advocate, (Jesus) and since it is inevitable that I will sin, it is better to sin as a Son than as an unbeliever.

Dear Was, There are 3 kinds of language in the bible: Figurative, Symbolic, and Literal. There are 3 things to avoid in reading the bible: Misinterpretation, Misapplication, and Dislocation. It is this false method of interpreting scripture that has led to so many different denominations of christianity. But I do believe that most, not all, christian denominations do teach believing in Jesus as the way to eternal life. So, it's not what's written over the door, but what's written on each individuals heart that matters most. If you read the bible and made your decision to reject it, then all I can say is " I hope you will take a second look, for your eternal destiny may rest upon your choice."

There is much said in scripture that can be construed as vulgar, but, there is also much more said that speaks of God's love for mankind. You need to remember that the people in the bible were humans just like you and me and the stories of their lives are no different. It truley goes to show you that sin has been around since the beginning of life. Thus, The Father shows us the severity of a need for a savior in his words to us.

I have to tell you, it is refreshing to see a believer that recognizes this behavior!

Not only do I recognize it, I detest it. It is very unGodly behavior.

There was an older man I befriended on another board who had turned away from God many years ago when his young son died. He said he would go into the pits of hell shaking his fist at God for what He had done in taking his son away from him.

There was something about this man that I loved instantly. He was a good man who was just angry, but a good man nonetheless. There were two biddies on that same board that were exactly like Patty, and all they ever did was condemn him and bash him over the head with their scriptures and berate him for who he had become. I, on the other hand, showed him love and acceptance and told those biddies how angry they made me because all they did was bolster his reason for not returning to God.

I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back -- only to say that while they were on their self-righteous attack on the front end, all I could hope was that I was reaching him through the back door by just loving him. Those ladies did far more damage than good, and I will always be angry at them for that. And sadly, Patty is no different than those other two Pharisees and the ones the Bible talks against.

There are those who can read the words and follow the law, but when it comes to FEELING the words and LIVING the law, they can't -- or don't. And it is those types that I believe do more damage in the long run. I have known more atheists who were better people than these high-and-mighty, look-down-their-nose types.

The bible reveals: God, The fall of man, The way of salvation, and Gods plan.

The bible tells of 4 people: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holyspirit, and Satan.

The bible tells of 3 Places: Heaven, Earth, and Hell.

The bible speaks of 3 Classes of People: Jew, Gentile, and The Church of God (or the believers in Christ)

The bible was written by Holy men of God as they were moved by the Holyspirit during a peiod of 1600 years (1492BC - 100AD) There are 66 Books in it, all written by 40 different authors (from Kings to Herdsmen) from MANY different places. the Old Testament and the New Testament are 2 halves of a whole. Yet, when all placed together, each book complimenting the others and making perfect sense, to form 1 great book as a gift for mankind to treasure and learn from. A book of God's words and truths to all who will desire to know him.

Yes, I believe glottony is a sin. (one sin of which I and all of us here was committing every day, before lapband) There is a vast difference between an 'unbelievers' sins and a 'believers' sins. Not that God does not hate both alike, the difference is not in the sin, but in the way God treats it. Here is a father who sends his son and his hired servant to do a piece of work. They are lazy and inefficient, and do not do the work. He bears with them, and tries them again, but it is no use. His son and his servant are good for nothing, his son perhaps the worse of the two. Now what does he do? He discharges the servant. He puts him out of his house. He will have nothing more to do with him. But does he discharge his son? Does he send him away from the house? Does he disinherit him? Nothing of the kind. He may rebuke him, cut off his allowance, punish him worse than he punished the servant, but he will not send him away because he is his son. We see then, that 'sonship' is a real thing. Is sonship then a shield from the punishment of sin? Does my sonship make it safer for me to sin? Oh no! It simply gives me the blessed privilege of having an Advocate, (Jesus) and since it is inevitable that I will sin, it is better to sin as a Son than as an unbeliever.

And again, you make it sound like "I have an out to be a sinner, neener neener" :wink2:.

To me, we are CALLED to be better. I expect MORE from my son than I would my servant. Because you say you are saved, you are supposed to have the Holy Spirit within you keeping you on the straight and narrow. Yet you, who is saved and supposedly have the Holy Spirit as your guide, STILL CHOOSE to sin! That is the difference, Patty. The way you PUT it makes it sound like, no matter what, you're safe and others aren't. And I know that technically that's the way it is, but the way you put it, it just sounds... so... superior.

Can somebody explain to me why every time Patty gets involved in a thread, it becomes the Patty Green Hour of Power?

Maybe you'd do better on a religion-only board somewhere.