NPR was doing a segment this morning on a very large Christian movement to have the new movie, The Golden Compass, boycotted. Of the three Pullman (a professed rejector of organized religion and atheist), this one (based on Northern Lights) has the least occurence of "anti-religion" themes - the last having the most. He is seen as being anti-Christian and anti-Catholic, but if you're familiar with him, he is much more anti-religion in the most general sense.

People are trying to stop their children from seeing this movie, out of fear that interest in the movie will generate interest in the books and *gasp* expose their children to themes of anti-religion.

I really don't understand this.

Why would someone be afraid that their child might learn that there's such a thing as atheism or agnosticism?

Why does the Harry Potter series terrify parents? Is it horrible if children know that there's a fantasy world of magic, or IF they can make the more cognitive connections, that witchcraft is out there?

As an atheist, I would not prevent my child from reading books which presented religion or a diety as a good thing, or books that presented atheism as a bad thing, or books that taught about ideas outside of whatever. If my child wanted to go to church, I would not prevent it. If they wanted to read the bible, I would buy them one. I would hope that my child understands there are different things that are right for different people, and eventually gathers the information needed to make the decision that is right for them... whether it aligns with my personal beliefs is irrelevant. What's right for me isn't right for everyone, and everyone includes my own family.

Oh gag- your "thought" on persecution was implied that you were speaking in general terms. Your mention of ACLU was at the very top of your post before you went on the rant about Christians in general.

The ACLU does work against religion. They have attempted to block teaching creationism in schools, prevented moments of silence , etc. Why can't the topic of creationsim be taught as a theory just as evolution is a theory and the big bang theory? How come only two out of three theories can be presented in schools? It's ridiculous! It sounds to be that Christians aren't afraid as atheism- athiests are afraid of Christians. They are actively working against Christianity at several terms!

In fact, I don't know how this topic has suddenly turned into an attack on Christianity!

Secondly, the rest of my post wasn't directed to you... it was directed to the topic in general. I'll be more clear in my future posts.

I don't believe that the ACLU is against the practice of one's religion inside a church, synagogue, mosque or inside one's home. I am under the impression that this organization seeks to separate state and religion and that is all. Doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. Of course, I am a foreigner and don't fully understand the American ways.

Why can't the topic of creationsim be taught as a theory just as evolution is a theory and the big bang theory? How come only two out of three theories can be presented in schools? It's ridiculous!

What is ridiculous is how many people have NO CLUE about science. The word "theory" in science has a very specific meaning. In order to be a scientific theory, there has to be a lot of rigor and data to support it. It's only called a theory because it can't be directly observed via the scientific method.

Creationism is junk science that doesn't rise to the standard of being a scientific theory. It has no place being taught in our schools as if it were equal to a true scientific theory that has undergone a rigorous process of vetting.

You know, I can say I have theory ... my theory is that people people who interpret the Bible literally rather than as a serious of metaphors and allegories were dropped on their head as babies. Hey, let's teach my theory in schools! After all, it's a theory just like evolution and the big band theory! Sure... they are exactly equal in how much data there is to support them. After all, they are all "just theories." Except not...

Oh gag- your "thought" on persecution was implied that you were speaking in general terms. Your mention of ACLU was at the very top of your post before you went on the rant about Christians in general.

The ACLU does work against religion. They have attempted to block teaching creationism in schools, prevented moments of silence , etc. Why can't the topic of creationsim be taught as a theory just as evolution is a theory and the big bang theory? How come only two out of three theories can be presented in schools? It's ridiculous! It sounds to be that Christians aren't afraid as atheism- athiests are afraid of Christians. They are actively working against Christianity at several terms!

In fact, I don't know how this topic has suddenly turned into an attack on Christianity!

Secondly, the rest of my post wasn't directed to you... it was directed to the topic in general. I'll be more clear in my future posts.

No, this is what I was responding to:

Then why did the ACLU fight the law tooth and nail? In fact, they fought it all the way to the Supreme Court. There's a current challenge to the law in Illinois.

And, what special perks have Christians historically enjoyed? Other than, I guess, the 1870 establishment of Christmas as a federal holiday...

The question was regarding the ACLU and Illinois and what perks have xtians had vs. non xtians, historically. I responded to the questions asked. Considering the topic was the ACLU and the school in Illinois, my comment on persecution was quite accurate. SOME xtians are throwing a fit over having to follow the same laws that they have forced everyone else to follow.

Schools are not in the business of pushing or teaching xtianity, those days are OVER. Creationism is based on religion, scientific theory is not based on religion. See the difference? Today they are teaching science, not religion. If you want your child to learn about your religion then teach him your religion. If you don't wish to do that then I would suggest a religious school vs. a public school.

I really do not understand why some xtians are pushing for religion in school. Xtianity is not going to be the majority religion in the US in a few years, not the way others are moving to the US and bringing their own religion and their own cultures with them. If some xtians keep demanding religion in public schools, your future generations might just have religions other than xtianity crammed down their throats. I'll bet you'll be on the side of atheists when that day comes demanding that religion be taken from public schools. Wait until kids are being taught about the Koran or they are dancing naked around a maypole before each test... bet'cha you change your tune then about religion in schools.

Careful what you ask for from the gov't, you might just get it and it might not be what you expected.

What is ridiculous is how many people have NO CLUE about science. The word "theory" in science has a very specific meaning. In order to be a scientific theory, there has to be a lot of rigor and data to support it. It's only called a theory because it can't be directly observed via the scientific method.

Creationism is junk science that doesn't rise to the standard of being a scientific theory. It has no place being taught in our schools as if it were equal to a true scientific theory that has undergone a rigorous process of vetting.

You know, I can say I have theory ... my theory is that people people who interpret the Bible literally rather than as a serious of metaphors and allegories were dropped on their head as babies. Hey, let's teach my theory in schools! After all, it's a theory just like evolution and the big band theory! Sure... they are exactly equal in how much data there is to support them. After all, they are all "just theories." Except not...

Perhaps if schools did a better job of teaching science there wouldn't be so much confusion of what scientific theory means vs. religion.

Where is Lauren... I think she might have given up on scientific theory threads. I'll have to call her over here. ;o)

I don't want religion in schools... I want all theories presented to children and let them choose.

How arrogant for you to assume that I don't know what theory means.... I do... doesn't make it fact. Tests derived to "prove" their own theory. Yeah, good science. Do a little reading and research, don't assume everyone else is an idiot.

I believe people should worship what they want or nothing, I don't care. What I care about is when people start ATTACKING my beliefs when I hadn't attacked yours.

Perhaps if schools did a better job of teaching science there wouldn't be so much confusion of what scientific theory means vs. religion.

Where is Lauren... I think she might have given up on scientific theory threads. I'll have to call her over here. ;o)

Thanks for the heads up, Wasa! Yep, I have definitely given up on attempting to explain the difference between a scientific theory and a layman's theory. It's just like slamming my head into a brick wall, repeatedly. Nothing gets accomplished and everyone gets pissed off, including me. As a biologist, it's extremely frustrating. Fact is, creationism is religion-based, whether you're talking about creation stories from Christianity, Buddhism, or Wicca. Teaching it is fine, as long as it stays in a theology class. It doesn't belong in a science class.

I don't want religion in schools... I want all theories presented to children and let them choose.

How arrogant for you to assume that I don't know what theory means.... I do... doesn't make it fact. Tests derived to "prove" their own theory. Yeah, good science. Do a little reading and research, don't assume everyone else is an idiot.

I believe people should worship what they want or nothing, I don't care. What I care about is when people start ATTACKING my beliefs when I hadn't attacked yours.

Nobody is attacking your beliefs, get over it. The hostility isn't making you look like a very nice xtian. The reality is that creationism does not hold up to SCIENCE. That is because it is RELIGION. That is not attacking your religion, that is a fact. Just because the facts don't add up to what you want them to be does not mean anyone is attacking you for explaining the scientific explanation of theory. If you don't like it quit screaming at the messenger, get SCIENCE to change their ways. It isn't going to work but you are free to try.

Public schools are not permitted to push religion, it's the law. Creationism is not science, it is religion. If you truly understood science and theory you would understand this. That is not attacking your religion, it's just the way it is.

Thanks for the heads up, Wasa! Yep, I have definitely given up on attempting to explain the difference between a scientific theory and a layman's theory. It's just like slamming my head into a brick wall, repeatedly. Nothing gets accomplished and everyone gets pissed off, including me. As a biologist, it's extremely frustrating. Fact is, creationism is religion-based, whether you're talking about creation stories from Christianity, Buddhism, or Wicca. Teaching it is fine, as long as it stays in a theology class. It doesn't belong in a science class.

I guess if religion was based on fact then believers wouldn't need faith, right?

I loved the Golden Compass and series, and never thought of them at anti-religious. But then again, I often just read for the sheer pleasure of the story.

I don't understand atheism, however I'm not afraid of it. What I am afraid of are fanatics of any kind - whether they be pro or anti religion. Fanatics push their own agenda and don't care who they stomp on to get there.

I am interested in all religions, and also atheism. I love having great 1 on 1 debates where both parties truly want to learn and understand. But you know that with religion and politics - that is a rare discussion.

I haven't been on LBT in a long time, just now saw the new format and this was the top listed post on R&R. I will be very interested in reading the responses. Hope they are insightful, tolerant and understanding.

Some people can't take rejection of any kind. As in "if you don't think or believe the way I do", then you must think I am stupid. In the case of faith, there is no way to prove one right or wrong so people just get very possesive of their beliefs because they feel they are threatened and have no "real defense". Of course this is not the case with everyone and I think that a majority of believers are accepting of others beliefs because they realize that is such a personal thing. Most people know that nothing is written in stone and one should be free to believe or not believe in any way they wish. We all need to give each other wide latitude in the area of faith and religion. The world would be so peaceful if everyone would be so tolerant of each other. But we know that this is just not so.

Beautifully said, Phyllis! (and I am so sorry to have missed you again. My FIL wasn't feeling well so I spent more time with him.)

What nonsense. Atheists aren't "lovers of pleasures" any more than Christians are. Many atheists are people with a strong moral code who strive to do good in the world and live ethically.

God doesn't exist and the bible is just a book written by men (and probably a few women who didn't get the credit they deserved. )

Nonsense? Really? Look at your local paper, and re-read the scripture and tell me again, that it's not an accurate description of the world....

By the way, as a Christian, who read the bible all the way through, I know what happens to true Christians who preach the truth..... I'm ok with ridicule, judgment, but my stance remains deeply rooted in the proof, as outlined in the bible, written by men, inspired by God.

You are entitled to your beliefs, and I, in mine.

It's your God-given free will.

This topic will only end in tears, go to my site on picking out names for my new African Grey Parrot.

brandy - you make me giggle (big pumpkin).

gadget - you stunning lady that i banter w/ - i have a face ; while your still get my big lab to look at.

i got to say this topic FASCINATES me, and not for an obvious reason. my very dear friend is an Atheist, and she's never been able to articulate her feelings well, and she has in a way been looked down upon my some friends of ours. i couldn't necessarily help her - because i have faith & i believe - but i'd never force my view onto her. i'm selfish - i like to believe there's more out there after death, like the party to continue.

it was something written here on the subject by Wasa / Wheetsin / or Laurend that i had her read, and the light bulb went off for her. she's like that's how i feel (she's very earthy) - so i get it. not my choice.

i more than want a separation of church / state - i have issues w/other philosophies different than mine forced upon me.

back to the big pumkin....

I don't want religion in schools... I want all theories presented to children and let them choose.

How arrogant for you to assume that I don't know what theory means.... I do... doesn't make it fact. Tests derived to "prove" their own theory. Yeah, good science. Do a little reading and research, don't assume everyone else is an idiot.

I believe people should worship what they want or nothing, I don't care. What I care about is when people start ATTACKING my beliefs when I hadn't attacked yours.

I 100% agree that comparative religion (and I include agnostics and atheists here) should be taught in the schools. It is definitely part of our history. The more I study, the stronger a believer I am. I doubt exposure to a belief, or lack of, will change too many minds.

What is YOUR take on the topic? I mean without having to look to the bible to find your opinions.

A wristwatch, has a creator.

The home you're in right now, has a creator.

If an atheist can look into their newborn child's face, after the miracle of birth, or look at nature, and the beauty of creation, and think that this all occurred by CHANCE, is quite amazing.

I could only assume that an atheist is someone who's been let down by false religion and sought their only available option that was reasonable to them at the time: not believing in what they once believed in..... I get that.

It doesn't mean it's the truth....

written by men, inspired by God.

Can you prove that?

Clearly, you cannot because religion depends on faith. I'm not knocking faith for you, but it isn't for me. I want the cold hard facts and religion does not provide us with that. It depends on believing something written by people we never met that historically had quite an agenda.

I don't think the world is such a horrible place to live in. I think it is pretty darn nice. It's pretty, there are lots of nice people, interesting things to do, fascinating things to learn... I think it's a great place. It could be better if people behaved themselves but it really comes down to how you want to look at it. If you want to look at - and focus upon the 5% of slimy people out there doing bad things, so be it. If you want to focus on the 95% of the people out there plugging away, living their lives, and doing the best they can, so be it.

This is one aspect of xtianity that I really don't understand. I can't wrap my brain around it. If there is a God, and I lack belief in such, then why not look at all the beautiful things around us. I see xtians write things all the time about how horrible the world is. Maybe for those writing those statements that is true. But it isn't true if you look beyond your own backyard. It's a pretty cool place to be.

I guess it is all perspective.