NPR was doing a segment this morning on a very large Christian movement to have the new movie, The Golden Compass, boycotted. Of the three Pullman (a professed rejector of organized religion and atheist), this one (based on Northern Lights) has the least occurence of "anti-religion" themes - the last having the most. He is seen as being anti-Christian and anti-Catholic, but if you're familiar with him, he is much more anti-religion in the most general sense.

People are trying to stop their children from seeing this movie, out of fear that interest in the movie will generate interest in the books and *gasp* expose their children to themes of anti-religion.

I really don't understand this.

Why would someone be afraid that their child might learn that there's such a thing as atheism or agnosticism?

Why does the Harry Potter series terrify parents? Is it horrible if children know that there's a fantasy world of magic, or IF they can make the more cognitive connections, that witchcraft is out there?

As an atheist, I would not prevent my child from reading books which presented religion or a diety as a good thing, or books that presented atheism as a bad thing, or books that taught about ideas outside of whatever. If my child wanted to go to church, I would not prevent it. If they wanted to read the bible, I would buy them one. I would hope that my child understands there are different things that are right for different people, and eventually gathers the information needed to make the decision that is right for them... whether it aligns with my personal beliefs is irrelevant. What's right for me isn't right for everyone, and everyone includes my own family.

Until your last post, I meant what I wrote. You have been blaming me for everything written on this thread. So at the time I wrote it, I meant it.

Okay...so has the mood lightened to where I can ask: You thought I was an angry cartoon baby, like Brandy did?

Maggie happens to be my fav Simpsons character because she's the one who doesn't put up with the BS. Lisa over-thinks, Bart just jumps in, Homer is stupid, Marge puts up with crap - but Maggie? She rolls up her sleeve and with the angry eyes she fixes it.

I'm not saying I'm the most like her...just that she's my fav. Bart is probably the most like me.

Yeah...I love me some Simpsons, though it's been a while since I've watched it.

luluc: not to belabor the point, but I'm not sure what thread you're talking about. I'd like to understand if I'm being naughty.

Well any discussion that poses a question about fear and a personal belief is bound to wind up in an argument.

I understand how infuriating it is to be accused of saying stuff that you haven't said and I also know how irritating it is to be accused of directing your words at a specific participant when you haven't singled any one person out.

Some people are just very personally affected by what people post and that's why so much of the time any topic that is political and/or religious is going to digress into some kind of p$ on someone else's punkin' contest.

I am delighted that I, for once, am not at the center of it and catching the wrath of those who are holier than thou. But it's fun reading - ya'll keep it up. Wish we had a smiley icon with a halo so I could use it now. :thumbup:

not to hijack - i was just commenting that this post here correlates w/the "who supports the right to choose" thread in which there's been much drama & i inferred you were talking about.

NOT to bring that topic here whatsoever!!!

Oh. Yep. That was one of the places where I've been targeted and felt a bit persecuted. And nope, I don't want to rehash that again either!

I was only trying to divert some attention away from the attack/counterattack going on here. I now understand why it made people uncomfortable when it was happening elsewhere. When you're in the middle of it you're simply trying to have your say and you are attempting to explain yourself. It can be difficult to understand when people try to intervene and shut it down if you're the one swapping barbs. :thumbup:

When I was younger, I was full of wonder and a lot of the world seemed magical. Surely that couldn't have happened without a creator?! But as I grew up, I began to learn more about how the world works and realized that I was just being naive. My wonder came from lack of knowledge. Which is not to say I don't have wonder any more, but it's a different kind and not one that leads me to "feel" the presence of a Higher Power.

Then I decided that even if there is a God, you have to do good for goodness sake and not because you want to please him or because you fear him. Also, whether is a God or not, I see no convincing evidence that there is an afterlife. I think when you die, you die.

Once I realized it didn't matter if there was a God or not because believing had no impact on my behavior, I began to see the world more clearly and realize that the very idea of a Creator is flawed. It was all based on feelings and not on logic. If you can't get a system without a creator, then you can't have a Creator without a Creator. There can be final Creator --it's like looking at yourself in a mirror with a mirror behind you -- each mirror reflects the image in the mirror into infinity.

Hi, Madame, thanks for your response, I will respond at a later time.

With all the discussion about "proving" that there is a God, I do have one question.

I've always believed that my belief in God goes hand in hand with science. But if we take God out of the equation, how does science explain the concept of "miracles"?

I ask because I believe, when I see or hear of a miracle, that's proof to me that God exists and that He loves us. But from a purely scientific standpoint- how is that explained?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here... I honestly am looking for honest and thoughtful responses.

In all honesty, I wanted to know if that was an intended slam that Christians aren't grown up, or it was her timeline...as a child she believed, but turned adult and didn't.

Why are those the only two choices? You are really overinterpreting what I said. There is nothing in what I said that can be boiled down into "the day I grew up, I stopped believing in God". I describe a gradual process with a series of revelations that cummulated in not believing. What age I was when each happens isn't relevant -- though if it makes you feel better, I still believed in God when I was 25. :thumbup:

Also, you need to stop interpreting everything said about not believing in God as being a slam on Christianity. Marx said "religion is the opiate of the masses". Is that a slam against Christianity? No, it's a slam against all religions.

That you're a silly Great Pumpkin believer, when clearly science has proven gourds cannot be a deity.

:thumbup:

Hey wait a minute isn't God everywhere and in everything even in the lowliest gourd or the greatest of pumpkins!:thumbup:

With all the discussion about "proving" that there is a God, I do have one question.

I've always believed that my belief in God goes hand in hand with science. But if we take God out of the equation, how does science explain the concept of "miracles"?

I ask because I believe, when I see or hear of a miracle, that's proof to me that God exists and that He loves us. But from a purely scientific standpoint- how is that explained?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here... I honestly am looking for honest and thoughtful responses.

Can you give me an example of a miracle that we can study and discuss?

Sure- I'm thinking stuff like people on the brink of death, doctors saying there's no hope and the person making a full recovery.

Here's an example:

On December 7th, Alcides Moreno and his brother Edgar, window washers, fell 47 stories down the side of the Upper East Side apartment building they were working on. His brother was killed instantly, but Alcides survived, consuming 24 units of blood and 19 units of plasma. In a coma, he went through 9 orthopedic operations, and then amazingly - I'm not making this up - awoke on Christmas Day.

More incredible still, Mr. Moreno is now on a path to full recovery, at least from the looks of it, walking and talking as he did before his fall. This has prompted Dr. Philip Barie, the chief of the Division of Critical Surgery at the hospital where Mr. Moreno is being treated to comment, “If you believe in miracles, this would be one.”

This man fell 47 stories and was normal weeks later! I mean, there's no medical explanation for things like this- I concur divine intervention.

This site gives good examples and a miracle study that was done.

American Thinker: Do Miracles Happen Today?

Sure- I'm thinking stuff like people on the brink of death, doctors saying there's no hope and the person making a full recovery.

Here's an example:

On December 7th, Alcides Moreno and his brother Edgar, window washers, fell 47 stories down the side of the Upper East Side apartment building they were working on. His brother was killed instantly, but Alcides survived, consuming 24 units of blood and 19 units of plasma. In a coma, he went through 9 orthopedic operations, and then amazingly - I'm not making this up - awoke on Christmas Day.

More incredible still, Mr. Moreno is now on a path to full recovery, at least from the looks of it, walking and talking as he did before his fall. This has prompted Dr. Philip Barie, the chief of the Division of Critical Surgery at the hospital where Mr. Moreno is being treated to comment, “If you believe in miracles, this would be one.”

This man fell 47 stories and was normal weeks later! I mean, there's no medical explanation for things like this- I concur divine intervention.

This site gives good examples and a miracle study that was done.

American Thinker: Do Miracles Happen Today?

So the medical care he received had nothing to do with this?

I'd have to see the medical records.

I'm looking for not "stories" but things we can all study, right here on this thread.

Hey wait a minute isn't God everywhere and in everything even in the lowliest gourd or the greatest of pumpkins!:thumbup:

...Hm....I think only if it's burning.

The man made what we call a "miraculous recovery" however I don't believe that what the doctor said indicated that he actually believed that it was a miracle.

The fact that the odds were stacked against the patient doesn't prove that a miracle took place.

If the man had lost huge amounts of blood, had multiple life threatening wounds and did not receive any medical attention, but his wounds closed themselves and the man had no ill effects from the loss of blood, and he just jumped up off the ground, raised his arms and said, "ta-da, want to see me do that again?" Now that would probably be accepted as a miracle.

I don't mean to sound smart alecky, but I was wondering what things we might discuss that everyone could agree was a miracle too. That one sure doesn't do it for me.

The man made what we call a "miraculous recovery" however I don't believe that what the doctor said indicated that he actually believed that it was a miracle.

The fact that the odds were stacked against the patient doesn't prove that a miracle took place.

If the man had lost huge amounts of blood, had multiple life threatening wounds and did not receive any medical attention, but his wounds closed themselves and the man had no ill effects from the loss of blood, and he just jumped up off the ground, raised his arms and said, "ta-da, want to see me do that again?" Now that would probably be accepted as a miracle.

I don't mean to sound smart alecky, but I was wondering what things we might discuss that everyone could agree was a miracle too. That one sure doesn't do it for me.

Exactly. Show me a leg that grew back, or an arm that grew back. Show me something that cannot be explained by giving someone medical care and they got better.

Some people are amazing fighters, the will to live is certainly there with some people. I mean, this guy that survived the fall, what about the person that falls off a chair, is barely hurt, and dies? They never had a will to live to begin with.

I have yet to see a true miracle. It can always be explained.

Did you look at the link that I provided as well?

If we can't define what a miracle is, there's no point to having this conversation. Just forget it and let's move on to another topic. I'm looking for conversation, not an argument.