It has been a really long day, followed by a dinner out with multiple margaritas, so I am ready post my first LBT Rants and Raves post.

I won't follow the herd anymore. Ever. I stopped doing that years ago when I realized that I made every decision based upon how I could make the most people happy (or prevent conflict). That's simply not healthy. And it takes all the fun out of life.

I hate absolutes. Absolutely hate them. I can't stand to lump a group of people together for any reason. All people at LBT are not sweet and perfect. All people at OH are not cheerleaders and ***** supporters. All Muslims are not extreme radicals. Not all of us Texas women are Southern Belles (ok so that one is debatable). All women are not subservient (ok I know you ladies agree with that one). We are all, quite simply, just people.

I don't want to be told I have to do something because it is the Christian thing to do. Are you my priest? My rabbi? My high priestess? Where do people get off on judging other people????? I don't freakin' get it. Each of us have own spirituality or lack of it. Each of us have our own moral core - although some are harder to identify than others. Don't attack me because I don't agree with you - hire a yes-man for that job - it doesn't pay enough for me to take it. And don't push your personal belief system off on me.

I like most people. Really I do. And I get along with most people. Some people just get to me, and I don't have to like them. There is no rule about that. There is only one person on my bad list at the moment, and if I ever get a personal apology that person will come off the list. You and I don't have to like the same people or have the same ideas to be friends. I prefer friends who are different from me. If I wanted everyone to be like me - well then I would become a hermit(ess) and just have ME for companionship.

I love our differences. I love the passion in which so many of us debate what we believe in. I just hate the herd mentality that says we all have to believe the same thing, or like the same people, or hate the same people....because ya know what? We don't. We are different. Our differences make us unique and teach us more about life than any book will.

And one more thing. I rarely drink and I really love Margaritas! :whoo:

You have a right to your opinion...I would post all that stuff again. The thread about asking where certain ones are and starting drama was in specific reference to many "new" people who would just become members or who had never been seen before and they would pop up and ask about Wendell or Dee. I thought that was a set up for more drama and was tired of it. (I didnt explain all that because many people knew...if you look at the responses you can see that) I dont agree with you about Wendell and have a very different perspective of his personality from talking to him on the phone (only one time for about 2 hours) and pm's that he sent me. So if saying how I feel makes me a *&_( stirrer so be it. I guess that could be said of anyone who speaks up. As far as the friendship post...I wanted to newbies to know not to feel left out and to jump in...it was also in response to others who have posted the board was cliqueish and if you werent in the clique you didnt belong. Again if you read the thread it was a positive one and everyone had positive things to say. I am not sure why that would bother anyone..but that o.k. if it bothered you....You could always block me there if my posts annoy you.

It definitely is revealing when a new member posts asking where is "whoever has been stirring things up". Another reveal of on ill person's troll posts is giving advice to newbies BEFORE the troll was banded.

The clique comments have always bothered me, because having long term friendships with people is not being part of a clique. It is simply friendship and common interests. I pass on a lot of posts because they are off topic and out of my interest area - doesn't mean I have any negative feelings at all - just not interested.

It definitely is revealing when a new member posts asking where is "whoever has been stirring things up". Another reveal of on ill person's troll posts is giving advice to newbies BEFORE the troll was banded.

The clique comments have always bothered me, because having long term friendships with people is not being part of a clique. It is simply friendship and common interests. I pass on a lot of posts because they are off topic and out of my interest area - doesn't mean I have any negative feelings at all - just not interested.

I have a question that is somewhat related. When your friend Caeli returned to OH and started posting again one of her first posts stated that she needed to get back on track and needed to start drinking her shake every morning. No one challenged her on that statement. When others who were beyond the initial liquid phase talked about protein shakes being part of their daily nutrition typically they faced a bunch of flack about it from what I would term "member of the clique" but when Caeli said she needs to drink a shake every morning there was no debate about it. No big blow harding from Ron or anyone else. What's up with that? Can you honestly say that if the same post was made by Wendell there would be no condemnation of the shake?

I have a question that is somewhat related. When your friend Caeli returned to OH and started posting again one of her first posts stated that she needed to get back on track and needed to start drinking her shake every morning. No one challenged her on that statement. When others who were beyond the initial liquid phase talked about protein shakes being part of their daily nutrition typically they faced a bunch of flack about it from what I would term "member of the clique" but when Caeli said she needs to drink a shake every morning there was no debate about it. No big blow harding from Ron or anyone else. What's up with that? Can you honestly say that if the same post was made by Wendell there would be no condemnation of the shake?

Susan I didnt realize we started at the same weight and are very close in our weights now...good job! I cant wait for goal.

I am not answering for Chelle..I just wanted to give my opinion...I never knew Caeli..she left the board before I was on..and when she came back I didnt read a lot of her stuff...just because there isnt enough time in the day to read everything.

The protein shake debate in my mind (I am the only one I can speak for) wasnt about protein shakes..it was about Wendell vs Sandy. I even told Sandy this on a thread before...

Wendell posted almost daily about protein shakes..he brought it up over and over. Even if people posted that their docs disagreed with that...he just kept posting on and on. It was all about egging on Sandy...(he told me this in a pm) and she would usually take the bait. The rest of the board was stuck in the middle and thats the one true time I saw cliques..the stupid protein shake issue that was really between two people. Wendell did not care one bit if his protein shake posts continued to lower morale...he was interested in getting his point across that Sandy is not qualified. He took no prisoners in this debate...ever. I drink protein shakes at times and couldnt care less if others do so or dont do so..although I think they should listen to their doctors. Doctors disagree on this issue so its only logical that their patients on OH would disagree too. Why post it daily to just stir the pot??? There was only one person who did that...then Brock did it knowing full well everyone was so tired of the fight..and thats when Ron took him on...(and I believe when some thought that Brock was Wendell..because its something Wendell had been doing for a long time) I dont think Brock is Wendell, I think he is someone who thinks he is funny and isnt. Ron had a right to voice his opinion after months of this ridiculous pissing contest. Does anyone really care if you or I or Ron or Wendell or anyone drinks protein shakes?...I dont think so.

I have a question that is somewhat related. When your friend Caeli returned to OH and started posting again one of her first posts stated that she needed to get back on track and needed to start drinking her shake every morning. No one challenged her on that statement. When others who were beyond the initial liquid phase talked about protein shakes being part of their daily nutrition typically they faced a bunch of flack about it from what I would term "member of the clique" but when Caeli said she needs to drink a shake every morning there was no debate about it. No big blow harding from Ron or anyone else. What's up with that? Can you honestly say that if the same post was made by Wendell there would be no condemnation of the shake?

I don't really know Caeli, and have no idea what Ron would do. Don't really know him either.

But if people have similar opinions, say, for instance, about protein shakes, that they are in a clique? My doctor told me not to drink them. My fill doctor told me not to drink them. But because I agree with that, doesn't mean I am in a clique. If they work for you and you are losing weight drinking them, then more power to you. But lots of newbies have taken the advise of some, and have turned these drinks into high calorie shakes with peanut butter, chocolate syrup, bananas, etc., and justified it because it has protein in it. Then they wonder why they don't lose weight. It is one area to examine.

Again, if it works great, but I wouldn't advise anyone to drink them.

What got old, was the daily recommendation to drink them...whether or not it is an actual recommendation, or subliminal, the message is there.

If someone comes to the board and states every day that they drink and love soda, they will probably get the same reaction out of me. I am free to disagree with someone.

I don't really know Caeli, and have no idea what Ron would do. Don't really know him either.

But if people have similar opinions, say, for instance, about protein shakes, that they are in a clique? My doctor told me not to drink them. My fill doctor told me not to drink them. But because I agree with that, doesn't mean I am in a clique. If they work for you and you are losing weight drinking them, then more power to you. But lots of newbies have taken the advise of some, and have turned these drinks into high calorie shakes with peanut butter, chocolate syrup, bananas, etc., and justified it because it has protein in it. Then they wonder why they don't lose weight. It is one area to examine.

Again, if it works great, but I wouldn't advise anyone to drink them.

What got old, was the daily recommendation to drink them...whether or not it is an actual recommendation, or subliminal, the message is there.

If someone comes to the board and states every day that they drink and love soda, they will probably get the same reaction out of me. I am free to disagree with someone.

I think you miss my point here. This isn't a post about protein shakes. It's a post about someone not getting hammered because they are a part of a particular group. Had a newbie come on that board and admitted to regaining some of her weight and mentioned drinking a protein shake every morning people would have been all over her with comments about it. But this wasn't a newbie therefore it appeared, to me at least, as though she was protected from ridicule because of her alliance.

Susan I didnt realize we started at the same weight and are very close in our weights now...good job! I cant wait for goal.

Congrats and great job to you too! I didn't realize that either! I look at your pics and you look so much thinner than me but we are both the same size I think (12). It's so nice to buy stuff in the regular departments. Just in time for Vera Wang's new line at Kohls!

I have a question that is somewhat related. When your friend Caeli returned to OH and started posting again one of her first posts stated that she needed to get back on track and needed to start drinking her shake every morning. No one challenged her on that statement. When others who were beyond the initial liquid phase talked about protein shakes being part of their daily nutrition typically they faced a bunch of flack about it from what I would term "member of the clique" but when Caeli said she needs to drink a shake every morning there was no debate about it. No big blow harding from Ron or anyone else. What's up with that? Can you honestly say that if the same post was made by Wendell there would be no condemnation of the shake?

Caeli was a strong supportive member of OH, with personal issues outside her control. She is *not* the person I was referring to, btw, just someone who is very special. She left OH for a very long time because the person you refer to "mocked her, taunted her and humiliated her", in her words. She posted asking for support about very personal issues, while she was in a fragile state, and something hurt her badly. I never asked for details - if I don't know them I can't repeat them. I just know that when I tried to convince her to return for the support she wanted, she was so hesitant. She made a few small steps in that direction and now we rarely see her online. She is someone who did help many people, and now needs the support of understanding friends. That sux.

About the stupid freaking protein debate. I just got tired of having the subject shoved down our throats daily. Everyone seems to be in agreement that we should eat solid protein first, the veggies, then complex carbs if we have room. Protein shakes are not a good recommendation for people to get around being too tight and avoiding solids. Protein shakes as a supplement for those who are too tight to eat in the mornings, or those who need added protein - this is not an issue with me. If you pay attention to OH as closely as I think you do, you will see that I rarely get involved in that discussion anymore because I am sick of it. Talk about a clique? How can you deny the cliquish behaviors of the I-love-protein-shakes-and-my-doc-says-it's-ok team? Frankly I see little difference, so I choose to stay away from it. Darn you for coaxing me into saying this much.:eek:

Congrats and great job to you too! I didn't realize that either! I look at your pics and you look so much thinner than me but we are both the same size I think (12). It's so nice to buy stuff in the regular departments. Just in time for Vera Wang's new line at Kohls!

My kohl's credit card is always maxed out. I never use my other department store cards..lol...Now with Vera Wang coming it will get worse.

I have a question that is somewhat related. When your friend Caeli returned to OH and started posting again one of her first posts stated that she needed to get back on track and needed to start drinking her shake every morning. No one challenged her on that statement. When others who were beyond the initial liquid phase talked about protein shakes being part of their daily nutrition typically they faced a bunch of flack about it from what I would term "member of the clique" but when Caeli said she needs to drink a shake every morning there was no debate about it. No big blow harding from Ron or anyone else. What's up with that? Can you honestly say that if the same post was made by Wendell there would be no condemnation of the shake?

There are also lots of OH posts like this one, old and newbies alike, and no fuss about protein shakes because it is a clear question and clear responses. No SnW debating. It can happen.

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Congrats and great job to you too! I didn't realize that either! I look at your pics and you look so much thinner than me but we are both the same size I think (12). It's so nice to buy stuff in the regular departments. Just in time for Vera Wang's new line at Kohls!

Size 12, coming soon to a store near CHELLE!

Size 12, coming soon to a store near CHELLE!

I noticed you dropped 1 or 2lbs from yesterday....WEIGH TO GO!!...and when the size 12 comes ...leave the credit cards at home...lol.

You have a right to your opinion...I would post all that stuff again. The thread about asking where certain ones are and starting drama was in specific reference to many "new" people who would just become members or who had never been seen before and they would pop up and ask about Wendell or Dee. I thought that was a set up for more drama and was tired of it. (I didnt explain all that because many people knew...if you look at the responses you can see that) I dont agree with you about Wendell and have a very different perspective of his personality from talking to him on the phone (only one time for about 2 hours) and pm's that he sent me. So if saying how I feel makes me a *&_( stirrer so be it. I guess that could be said of anyone who speaks up. As far as the friendship post...I wanted to newbies to know not to feel left out and to jump in...it was also in response to others who have posted the board was cliqueish and if you werent in the clique you didnt belong. Again if you read the thread it was a positive one and everyone had positive things to say. I am not sure why that would bother anyone..but that o.k. if it bothered you....You could always block me there if my posts annoy you.

I never stated that your posts annoy me. I have never blocked anyone and don't plan on starting now. Unlike some people, I feel that we all have a right to say what we want as many times as we want to. I did not state that you were a &^%$ now. I gave my opionion from when I joined the board six months ago. Over that time, I have asked you to be on my friend's list because of what you've accomplished with your band. I even stated on my thread to screw the folks that talk about a clique. I have stated all along that I am an impartial member on both boards. If people don't think that they can posts on a public forum because they don't know folks, that's THEIR problem. You have a different history with Wendell. I have a different history with Sandy. Sandy should never have reached out to me involving Wendell. Everyone did have positive things to say about your posts and I was not disturbed by it. What sane person would be? Believe me, I didn't have to play sane on my psych eval for surgery. We have disagreed before and we disagree now. I don't have a problem with it. Do you?

I noticed you dropped 1 or 2lbs from yesterday....WEIGH TO GO!!...and when the size 12 comes ...leave the credit cards at home...lol.

uh, but I do most of my shopping online....

... It was all about egging on Sandy...(he told me this in a pm) and she would usually take the bait. The rest of the board was stuck in the middle and thats the one true time I saw cliques..the stupid protein shake issue that was really between two people. Wendell did not care one bit if his protein shake posts continued to lower morale ...

(emphasis my own)

This is a pretty good example of one of the problems I have with the Wendell bashing. Okay, I'll grant you that he likely did things to annoy Sandy on purpose, she did the same to him. BUT... it takes two to cause that kind of an uproar to the point of lowering morale. Yet according to the way I'm reading your statement it was Wendell that caused the lower morale, just Wendell.

Sandy played a huge role in this as well, why aren't they both blamed for the problem of morale?

You know, it really makes me angry when I see someone write that their doc supports protein shakes and Sandy all but tells them their doc is wrong and she is right. Protein shakes work for many of us, me included! I understand her point, liquid calories. But if someone is using them in place of a meal vs. in addition to a meal, AND if they are good to go for a few hours then what's the big deal? What is her huge issue with them? So they don't work for her, then she shouldn't drink them. But they work quite well for others.

I absolutely hate it when she downs someone's doctor because something didn't work for her. She is one person, a unique individual just like the rest of us.

She'll post a study and then claim MOST doctors agree with the study. Once again I'd have to ask, says who? Who says MOST doctors agree with her study? She makes that stuff up to defend her stance on an issue. Those kinds of behaviors annoy the crap out of people and they start getting tired of the behaviors and the attacks and they respond in kind.

Please understand, I'm not asking you specifically to answer the above questions, they are just issues I personally have with Sandy regarding her studies and big claims.

My real point here is that they were both going at one another on a constant basis yet it is ALL Wendell, everything that happened was Wendell's fault, all controversy was Wendell, all Sandy's reactions and fights are Wendell's fault. When does Sandy start becoming responsible for her half of these issues? You can't tell me she did nothing to egg him on, yet we don't hear about that. Just what Wendell did.

Fair is fair, let's put the blame where it belongs, both of them and not just one person.

I never stated that your posts annoy me. I have never blocked anyone and don't plan on starting now. Unlike some people, I feel that we all have a right to say what we want as many times as we want to. I did not state that you were a &^%$ now. I gave my opionion from when I joined the board six months ago. Over that time, I have asked you to be on my friend's list because of what you've accomplished with your band. I even stated on my thread to screw the folks that talk about a clique. I have stated all along that I am an impartial member on both boards. If people don't think that they can posts on a public forum because they don't know folks, that's THEIR problem. You have a different history with Wendell. I have a different history with Sandy. Sandy should never have reached out to me involving Wendell. Everyone did have positive things to say about your posts and I was not disturbed by it. What sane person would be? Believe me, I didn't have to play sane on my psych eval for surgery. We have disagreed before and we disagree now. I don't have a problem with it. Do you?

No problems..I actually apologize if I jumped in defensively. I like people to speak their minds...When I read your post...I did assume you tone was a negative one..(the disadvantage of a written medium). Your view of the situation is based on your history with Sandy and my view is of my history of Wendell....good point. I didnt have to take a psych eval to get my band....wonder if I would have passed?