You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

Quote me the part of the bill where it says people will be forced out of their plan. Since most people get their insurance through their employers, it is the employers who choose the plan, not the employees, unless it's negotiated.

I have already gone over this with you. Insurance companies can not, I repeat, CAN NOT compete with a gov. insurance plan that is not out to make a profit. ALL the private citizens and business people will turn to the gov. plan to save money for themselves. In so doing, the rates for private ins. companies will need to go up to cover the loss of policy holders who went for the gov. plan. This will cause others to go for the gov. plan as well. Before long, EVERYONE will be on it. There. NO MORE OPTIONS for the people. A government take over. Why can't you forsee that? This is not 'quoted' in the bill as you would like me to show you. This is reality of what will happen if the government starts their own ins. company that will compete with private ins. companies.

YOU KEEP BEATING A DEAD HORSE. THERE IS NO PUBLIC OPTION. THE INSURANCE COMPANY LOBBYISTS MADE SURE OF THAT. :biggrin: GIVE IT UP AND MOVE ON.

From Pattygreen:

So America… it is Obama & Co Full Steam Ahead for the Obama Progressive Socialism Train Ride to Hell:

• Never Own a Problem, Blame Bush For Everything – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Progressive Astro-Turfing and the DEM Rent-A-Protester Program – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Wholesale Personal Attacks Against Opposing American Voters – Full Steam Ahead
  
• more More MORE Progressive Borrow and Spend – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Presidential Lip Service to Government Transparency – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Ignoring Private Sector Job Makers – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Socialized Health Care – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Cap & Trade – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Open Gayness in the Military – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Increasing Government Spending and Size – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Attacks on the First Amendment – Full Steam Ahead
  
• Giving Islamic Terrorists Rights of US Citizenship – Full Steam Ahead
  

Well, by all means let's go back to the bush/republican way of doing things:

1) ignore terrorist warnings

2) worst terrorist disaster happened on bush's watch

3) unnecessarily invaded Iraq costing 4000+ lives and increasing the deficit

4) no WMD's

5) no Iraqi/Al Qaida link

6) torture

7) rendition

8) secret prisons

9) Katrina

10) two tax cuts for the rich adding to the deficit

11) expensive medicare drug plan payed for by taxpayers (about a trillion $$ over 10 years) - a big give away to pharma

12) cadillac medicare advantage subsidized by taxpayers.

13) turn surplus into deficit

14) took more vacation than any other president

15) deregulate wall street contributing to worst economic meltdown since great depression.

16) rising unemployment

17) falling GDP

18) ignore the big problems (kick can down the road): healthcare, global warming, clean energy, energy independence

And many more...

How Obama's recovery bill helped our economy. Only 3 republicans out of the total house and senate voted for this, but as Pres. Obama pointed out MANY WENT TO RIBBON CUTTING CEREMONIES FOR PROJECTS PAID FOR BY THESE FUNDS WHICH THEY VOTED AGAINST. MORE GOP HYPOCRISY. It never ends!!!

Here's my graph of BLS data for this recession:

This Bureau of Labor Statistics showed how the job loss slowed down considerably after Obama got in. The unemployment would be around 15% without the recovery act.

Also, in the last quarter of 2009, the GDP grew by 6% compared to a negative 6 when bush left office. A 12% difference. Great by any economist's analysis.

What she pays all this and has a child and doesn't get a grant? Yes. How about child care deduction on income tax? No there is no shame in getting a government subsidized loan and no shame in getting a government grant. The shame is in accepting help that is available but begrudging it for others.

I do not begrudge others to get help that the government has already in place for them. What I oppose is all the NEW help that's being thrown out to everyone while we are in a recession and our national debt is skyrocketing past oblivion and where we can't even pay the interset on what we owe!!!!! The nerve of Obama to speak the other night about all these wonderful things he has planned for the american people to help them financially, but not explain one word as to how he expects to pay for it all!

He dares because the money saved by stopping a useless war, reducing useless expenditures in health care due to reform, reduced expenditures in the prison system, and an increased tax base by assuring that corporations and wealthy people pay their share. Most of all he dares because he like many of us is tired of the status quo of those who have the most getting the big breaks and those of us who have some getting some and those who have little or nothing getting little or nothing. The current system is not working. That is how he dares and how it will be paid for!

I'll believe the independent CBO report rather than some conservative, Obama-hating website analysis.

Something about this system is giving the wrong people credit for the wrong quotes. I sure hope you guys know I didn't post that one. That was definately a Patty Green.

Something about this system is giving the wrong people credit for the wrong quotes. I sure hope you guys know I didn't post that one. That was definately a Patty Green.

I know. I had to go back and edit some of my posts. I do not want to have any of pattygreen's quotes attributed to someone else! :biggrin:

I have already gone over this with you. Insurance companies can not, I repeat, CAN NOT compete with a gov. insurance plan that is not out to make a profit. ALL the private citizens and business people will turn to the gov. plan to save money for themselves. In so doing, the rates for private ins. companies will need to go up to cover the loss of policy holders who went for the gov. plan. This will cause others to go for the gov. plan as well. Before long, EVERYONE will be on it. There. NO MORE OPTIONS for the people. A government take over. Why can't you forsee that? This is not 'quoted' in the bill as you would like me to show you. This is reality of what will happen if the government starts their own ins. company that will compete with private ins. companies.

A program to provide health care for all that doesn't have profit as their bottom line?? And this is bad???

I really have a hard time understanding this fear-based paranoia about all this. Maybe it's apples and oranges. I would have huge reservations about my (Canadian) health care system being run by big profit centred corporations. I also would have even more reservations if my neighbour (whether he was currently working or not) would not get the same care as me.

I also have a hard time understanding the self centred attitude I've read on some of the postings, things like "why should I end up paying for people who sit on their asses all day and are too lazy to work and therefore get insurance."

I get the feeling that even if a universal health care system was more affordable for current insurance payers they would still be pissed off because "It's not FAIR!!" (feet stomp petulantly).

This whole thing continues to astound me and makes me lose hope for the US. It feels a hell of a lot like devolution.

patty: "If you're one of those people who feel that if they owned a gun, they would use it in a wrong way, then you shouldn't own one. Just don't expect everyone else to throw theirs out cause you're paranoid."

This is the second time you've called me paranoid. It was stupid the first time and is stupid this time. Paranoia has absolutely nothing to do with either of the arguments I made.

I will not take the time to explain it to you though because I doubt if you will understand it then. You're all about on talk and short on listen.

People may wonder why I handle quotes the way I do. It's because I get so irritated when people quote somebody and then do not say who they're quoting, or attribute it to someone that didn't say it. Which has happened to me many times. It is incredibly wrong!!! And people can get in big trouble in the real world for doing it.

Devana I have to agree with you about loss of hope for America.

The Republicans have no longer chosen to participate in Congress as legislators and progressive partners with the president and Democrats. They have chosen the path of being obstructionists. They are angry that Obama is our president. They have locked arms and are doing all they can, both in congressional sessions and in the media, to keep anything moving forward that Obama and the Democrats see as improving the United States.

Obstructionists. And I believe that Americans (south of your border) are getting well and truly fed up with it. Now whether they will or can do anything about it is what makes me worry that your term "devolution" may well apply to us.

A program to provide health care for all that doesn't have profit as their bottom line?? And this is bad??? This is what I have been saying. Don't use the argument that a non-profit public option might put the greedy, for-profit insurance companies out of business, because I think that would be a GREAT IDEA!

I really have a hard time understanding this fear-based paranoia about all this. Maybe it's apples and oranges. I would have huge reservations about my (Canadian) health care system being run by big profit centred corporations. I also would have even more reservations if my neighbour (whether he was currently working or not) would not get the same care as me.

I also have a hard time understanding the self centred attitude I've read on some of the postings, things like "why should I end up paying for people who sit on their asses all day and are too lazy to work and therefore get insurance."

Or coming from the selfish medicare recipients who say "keep the government's hands off my medicare". DUH.

And so many people have the attitude that:

1) Whatever I have, I deserve it but you don't.

2) If you don't have something then you are lazy

3) If I don't have something then you shouldn't either

I get the feeling that even if a universal health care system was more affordable for current insurance payers they would still be pissed off because "It's not FAIR!!" (feet stomp petulantly).

This whole thing continues to astound me and makes me lose hope for the US. It feels a hell of a lot like devolution.

Well said.

YOU KEEP BEATING A DEAD HORSE. THERE IS NO PUBLIC OPTION. THE INSURANCE COMPANY LOBBYISTS MADE SURE OF THAT. :biggrin: GIVE IT UP AND MOVE ON.

NOW there isn't! But I thought we were talking about the past proposed HC bill.

A program to provide health care for all that doesn't have profit as their bottom line?? And this is bad???

It is if the government is running it.

It is if the government is running it.

Why?

I need 10 characters to post this and I'd rather not add question marks, because this is a gentle why rather than a demanding one. So I definitely have enough characters now.

Why?

I need 10 characters to post this and I'd rather not add question marks, because this is a gentle why rather than a demanding one. So I definitely have enough characters now.

There isn't much that the government runs that isn't bankrupt and/or taxing the crap out of us, or is costing way, way more than the private industry can do it for.