You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

You can't win a debate with opponents while you are telling them at the same time that you do not respect their views.

I don't run around telling people I don't respect their opinion on this matter. You asked the question -- over and over and over again. Would you prefer that I lie to you?

Now, if you had said that you do respect the views of the pro-choice movement, and understand that thoughtful and compassionate people can hold such views, that would have told me that I might actually need to be worried about you. That would have told me that you might actually possess the insight necessary to win the argument in the long term.

And you really, really care here that I win this argument. Right. All you wanted to do by asking the question was to give yourself the ability to point a finger at me and say, "See!!! See!!!! There!!! She's disprespectful!!!" Which, by the way, is not the case. I have not been disrespectful to anyone that I'm aware of. And if I have, my apologies.

You got your wish. I won't lie to you. At least now you can't say, "See!!!! See!!!! She's a liar!!!"

BTW, it's not a question that commonly comes up when debating someone: "Do you respect me?" LOL! Ever heard THAT in a Presidential debate?

NOW can we get back to the real issue?

gadget- you are so presumptuous about some of our posts. You just love to put words and meanings into other people's posts. Always negative ones when you disagree with them. I was not snapping my fingers at you. I was, by my post, observing that you probably felt the way you've now stated that you do feel...disrespectful for anyone who believes that women should have the right to choose to have or not to have an abortion, without interference from the government.

Well, then, weren't you being presumptuous about my lack of instant response? The reason I didn't answer more promptly was not because I was being disrespectful, because I didn't want to answer the question, or because I was unwilling to reiterate what I've already said more than once. The reason was because I had stepped away from my computer to tend to my children. The ones that were my children even when they were in my womb.

As a matter of fact, gadget, in presidential debates all of the participants are very quick to state that they respect their opponents and their opponents viewpoints. They know that if they don't respect others in a debate, it will make them look stupid and it will give their arguments less credibility because of that stupidity.

By the way, you said that if someone doesn't respect your opinion, that you could care less. How much less?

My point was, oh gracious and wonderful mother that you undoubtedly are, that I was speaking to the person to whom I directed my post, not to you. I wasn't in fact presuming anything, I was sure of it.

Please see Mark's post above. He says it best, I think. To me, quite frankly, showing disrespect for someone's closely held, intensely examined beliefs is showing disrespect for that person. It shows that you don't believe that other people are honest enough, smart enough, or "good" enough to come to a decision that you intensely disagree with. It shows that you will never recognize that other people HAVE put time and effort into deciding what side to be on. You disrespect it and you disregard it, and yet you expect people to be swayed, even as you flaunt that disrespect.

But like Mark said, keep it coming, please. People like you and Daffodil are the biggest enemies to your own side. No one listens to people who blatantly disrespect their beliefs.

You guys are rich. Attack away. It must mean you're right about abortion. After all, if I lie and say I respect your opinions on this matter, then I'm worthy of discussing it. If I tell the truth, that I don't respect the opinion that it's acceptable to deliberately kill an innocent human being, I'm only worthy of ridicule.

Hey, since what we're debating here has come down to feelings and semantics, is anyone willing to say they respect my opinion that I don't respect the pro-abortion opinion? :pound:

Hmmm. Crickets. Wonder what that means? Wonder if it means that people here HAVE A LIFE??????? Oh, no. Must mean that they're vindictive, hateful, presumptuous, and condescending.

OK, good. Now that we're done with the psycho-babble portion of the debate, I'd like to respond to the issue of polling that someone posted earlier. I just read this in an article I received online:

In August of 2004, in a survey sponsored by Pace University and Rock the Vote, 54% of all Americans declared themselves pro-life while just 44% said they supported legal abortion. African-American voters took a pro-life position by a larger 59% to 42% margin.

This quote comes from an article at Martin Luther King, Jr. Niece Says Abortion is Real Black "Quiet Riot" talking about Martin Luther King Jr.'s niece, Dr. Alveda King, and her pro-life work (as an aside, her website is Alveda King - Home).

So despite what 396's poll says here, one must understand that self-selected polls are rarely representative or accurate. They are only representative of one group of people within a specific community that also choose to participate in the poll.

396: I did not accuse you of judging people. Although from your post about judging people, quoting the Bible, etc., it seems that maybe you really are judging those friends of yours. Otherwise why mount a defense when no one was attacking you about it? I don't wonder that they wouldn't want to discuss something as important and personal as abortion with you if they already know you're going to judge them in a negative way. Afterall, they're your beliefs, your convictions, so very much more important than your friends or their needs.

Since you brought up the Bible, do you think that Jesus would make negative comments about his friends if they had had an abortion? He might not recommend an abortion to a friend in trouble, but I doubt seriously if he would not be totally loving and supportive of a woman in trouble, even after she had brutally murdered her human being (clump of cells.)

I think I'm being loving by not bringing it up! (what are you new?)

Here's a link to the results of a whole lot of polls on abortion. Most of them have several years of results.

Abortion

I'd like to know exactly how you found out that I'm rich.

gadget: Mark, and I believe Laurend, made it quite clear that they respect you and your opinions about murdering babies. Although you said earlier that you "could care less." So I'm surprised you're asking.

I hate that this has become some kind of personal jab posting stuff. It reminds me of some of the other discussions that have gone one earlier having to do with religion. They served no constructive purpose and just made us all feel bad.

I think many of us just got completely fed up with the incredibly graphic and inflammatory verbage that pro-lifers like to post to try to insult and lay guilt upon those who believe in a woman's right to choose whether she can have an abortion or not have an abortion without the government's interference.

gadget: Mark, and I believe Laurend, made it quite clear that they respect you and your opinions about murdering babies. Although you said earlier that you "could care less." So I'm surprised you're asking.

I wasn't asking. It was a joke. Did you see the smiley-guy pounding on the ground?

I hate that this has become some kind of personal jab posting stuff. It reminds me of some of the other discussions that have gone one earlier having to do with religion. They served no constructive purpose and just made us all feel bad.

I agree with you -- and I respect your opinion about it!

I think many of us just got completely fed up with the incredibly graphic and inflammatory verbage that pro-lifers like to post to try to insult and lay guilt upon those who believe in a woman's right to choose whether she can have an abortion or not have an abortion without the government's interference.

Unfortunately, abortion is an incredibly graphic thing. However, I must say that for my part, I did not begin the escalation of verbiage. I never said blood-soaked baby killers, or whatever it was. That was not me. That was Mark, trying to characterize what I said. And, in doing so, I think it left a vivid picture in peoples' minds that they associated with me. Insulting and laying guilt is not my goal; education is. That's why I post about the development of the baby in the womb, etc. If I wanted to insult and lay guilt, I would have done so to the women on this board who have freely admitted that they've had abortions. And I don't think I've done that.

396: You question whether I'm new here? Are you new?

I wasn't suggesting that you were or were not bringing it up to your friends. I was addressing the issue that they had not decided to discuss it with you, their friend.

I am sure it was a loving thing for you to do to not discuss it with them because you knew you would not be able to be generous in your support of them. I'm not criticizing you for not talking with them about it, just observing that I find it sad that if they are good friends of yours, they didn't feel comfortable sharing something that was probably very important in their lives, with you.

It's back to the old respect thing we were discussing, really. You know not being able to respect others with differing opinions and beliefs.

Unfortunately, abortion is an incredibly graphic thing. However, I must say that for my part, I did not begin the escalation of verbiage. I never said blood-soaked baby killers, or whatever it was. That was not me. That was Mark, trying to characterize what I said. And, in doing so, I think it left a vivid picture in peoples' minds that they associated with me. Insulting and laying guilt is not my goal; education is. That's why I post about the development of the baby in the womb, etc. If I wanted to insult and lay guilt, I would have done so to the women on this board who have freely admitted that they've had abortions. And I don't think I've done that.

You may not have said it, but you weren't disagreeing with Daffodil, and she definitely said it. To me, that signals that you agreed with her. And unfortunately, we're judged by the company we keep. That goes for all of us, I don't deny that. I've even spoken up on other threads and admitted that members of my side had gone too far. But you haven't, and to me, that says volumes.