You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

Yes. Your're right, that sounds harsh. You want to project your feelings into her story. You don't know what would have happened to this woman if she had not had an abortion. She could have died. Then there would be no life and no 4 children, and no great guy, and no way for her to have any feelings of remose or for her to regret her life of drugs and alcohol. There would be no way for her to have seen the "light" and live a better life. No chance for God's guidance or his forgivness.

I see that Pix has said it much better than I ever could have.

In the end the ONLY person she has to answer to is her God, not you, not me, not some poor stuttering protesting schmuck on the street.

Until you are in her shoes, you can't honestly pass judgment on her choices in life. Isn't the bible the one that states "let he who is with out sin cast the first stone"?? You got a handful of pebbles darlin, but I don't see your halo or wings anywhere.

Yes, you're right "darlin", it doesn't matter how I feel about it. It is between her and her God.

I just feel very sorry for all the babies that have to die because of people's irresponsible lifestyles and life choices. They are the victims.....

It's actually between her alone, there is no such thing as God Darlin!!!

You know, I honestly feel for you. You seem so narrow minded that you can't see the other side of the coin. You can't grasp that people out there don't think like you, and if they don't they are wrong and evil and doomed to a life of hell.

How come you can't see, that she took a horrid situation and turned it around in the end? You can't see that from that fateful moment she chose to terminate her pregnancy she turned her life around. Not because she had an abortion but because she knew she had to change or everything she had just done would be for nothing. She changed her life all for this unborn child that she would never hold, never see. She chose to make this unborn child the base to her life, not despite it.

But you wont see that will you? You wont see that that one fateful moment changed her life forever. You wont see that she lives her life because of that child, not despite it. You go ahead and continue on that train of thought, I know differently as does my best friend. Sounds like to me you need to take a hard look at those pebbles in your hand before you cast anymore out.

Ok since we're having so much fun attacking each other, I'd like to add, that by GadgetLady's (and others) reasoning.... ie fertilized egg=baby, then I'd like to add doesn't that mean that every woman on birth control is a killer??? After all, the pill and other birth control methods, do kill fertilized eggs, therefore all women who have ever been on birth control are baby killers.....

I support BJean.... prove to me that it's a baby.... it's a cancer! It's a parasite... until it can breathe air and doesn't need a host to survive, it's not a baby.

hnladue, I see your logic, but I do disagree with it. An unborn child is not a cancer, nor is it a parasite. My children are 7 and 9, they need me (or another responsible adult) to survive, with out the guidance, care, and nurturing I (or another responsible adult) can give them they would waste away and die. I provide nourishment for there bodies, and nourishment for there minds. I would also like to think I am teaching them to protect there souls by making the right choices in life.

You know, I honestly feel for you.

You don't have to, I'll be just fine, but thanks anyway. We could go round and round all day but it all comes to this, you believe differently than I do.

I really wish I could empathize with drug addicts and reckless people who get pregnant and have abortions, but I can't.

Sorry.

All this impassioned argument here points out one thing quite clearly: There should be no ban against a woman's right to make her own choices when it comes to her body and that of her own eggs, fertilized or not. These eggs are not the property of the state. The people have no right to seize a woman's eggs and force their idea of morality on the mother.

In fact, you can't force people to accept your idea that a fertilized egg is and of itself, a baby. An embryo has no voice because its' voice is that of the mother - not the voice of outsiders who wish to impose their will on not just the baby but also the mother. You cannot separate the two.

By the way, if you will take the time to go back and read Tommy's original post on this page, you will find that he did not personally insult anyone.

I beg to differ, BJean. There is history to TommyO's post. He was very specifically, personally, insulting me (or at least attempting to). He was around a long time ago (1-2 years?) when laurend and I had a very thoughtful, lengthy, and thought-provoking discussion about Intelligent Design / Creation Science vs. evolution. TommyO's comment to me on this thread (and on others) frequently pulls in his disdain for my personal beliefs: hence this was very much a "personal attack" that may have appeared to some as just random musings.

That being said, I must apologize for how I responded. I should not have stooped to that level. It was petty and I should have ignored him, as I normally try to do. I will try harder in the future, until and unless his posts actually have legitimate points to make.

It's funny how the so called Christian can't emapthize with the drug addict but a terrible Athiest such as me can. I wonder witch one of us your God would judge more harshly

Tommy, Empathy is something that is taught, not learned through life. I was raised to feel great sympathy and empathy for those around me. I am not Christian, nor am I am atheist. I do believe something is out there showing us how to be and how to live, it is our choice on whether or not we look at what we are being shown. For quite some time I wandered through life blindly, I was a drug addict, and just an all around mean spiteful person.

My epiphany wasn't the same as most, my rock bottom was probably mild compared to some. But I did make the choice to change my life for the better. I wont judge nor begrudge someone because of there life choices nor there belief system. I wont offer harsh words or spiteful vitriol because they disagree with me.

I can see your arguments and even understand them, but the way you convey them is just (strictly my opinion) mean and petty. I would assume you don't mean for them to come across as such, but that is how they are being perceived.

That child would have been doomed to a life suffering from the mothers mistakes, born addicted to drugs and alcohol, born into a life of pain and anguish.

Shortly after she had the abortion she put herself into rehab, cleaned up her life and left her ex. That sequence of events was the hardest thing she ever had to do in her life. Starting with aborting a child that was a part of her.

Why couldn't she clean herself up without killing her baby, too? Why did she require that particular catalyst to turn her life around?

you do not know how much this choice haunts her. But she knows she made the right choice. She lives her life now for her unborn child, her sobriety her choosing to move forward and leave the relationship she was in was for this child's memory.

I cannot imagine a "right choice" "haunting" someone for the rest of her life. Generally, when something "haunts" a person, it was a wrong choice.

Pix, I have no doubt that your best friend suffers greatly for her "choice" to this day -- even as you say it, I'm sure that the pain she is in daily is beyond what she can even share with you. While she was able to turn her life around, still yet many women experience the opposite: after their abortions they sink into a life of depression, drugs, and alcohol trying to bury the memories that haunt them (I'm sure those in favor of abortion will strenuously disagree with me here, but it's a fact for many -- not all -- mothers who abort).

One of the best reasons to choose life is because where there is life, there is hope. Your friend doesn't have the ability to reverse her decision to abort her first child. You state that if she had given her baby life, that baby would have been born into "a life of pain and anguish." Not only is there no guarantee of that, but clearly she had the ability within herself to turn her life around -- and the preemptive killing of her child to accomplish that seems a bit incongruous, doesn't it? Now she is living that life of pain and anguish because of a decision that haunts her, when she could have taken the same steps she took to clean up her life AND carry her baby to term at the same time.

She may tell you and/or you may surmise that the abortion was the best thing that ever happened to her and she would do it again, but I strongly suspect she says that to justify a decision that she regrets and would not choose again. She may not even know she's doing this, either. Can I ask you, if she hasn't received specifically post-abortion counseling already, to encourage her to do so? While this decision will always be with her, I know a lot of women who have experienced incredible healing through the counseling. I wish her my best and she will be in my prayers.

It's funny how the so called Christian can't emapthize with the drug addict but a terrible Athiest such as me can. I wonder witch one of us your God would judge more harshly

Yeah, you got me there didn't you!! :smile:

I'm very secure in my Christianity, I am not worried how He will judge me. He knows my heart. But guess what, I'm not perfect and He's ok with that! Isn't that amazing!!! I am a sinner, and He knows that, and he forgives me, just as he will forgive others who have sinned if they accept Him into their heart! Yes, even people who murder and have abortions if they go to Him.

But you probably don't want to hear this from me anyway. Yours was probably a rhetorical question.....however I am anxiously awaiting your next response!!!

I beg to differ, BJean. There is history to TommyO's post. He was very specifically, personally, insulting me (or at least attempting to). He was around a long time ago (1-2 years?) when laurend and I had a very thoughtful, lengthy, and thought-provoking discussion about Intelligent Design / Creation Science vs. evolution. TommyO's comment to me on this thread (and on others) frequently pulls in his disdain for my personal beliefs: hence this was very much a "personal attack" that may have appeared to some as just random musings.

That being said, I must apologize for how I responded. I should not have stooped to that level. It was petty and I should have ignored him, as I normally try to do. I will try harder in the future, until and unless his posts actually have legitimate points to make.

Gadget, I strongly believe that there is not doubt in anyone's mind here that Tommy O was being rude and insulting, despite of any comments from anyone saying otherwise in an attempt to obtain support for their views, his post was clear in regards to his manners, and anyone that can read english can surely see the personal attack and not a civil discussion/debate from his part, but truly, his posts bring nothing positive or intellectual in my opinion and I believe they are much better ignored, they are not worth it.:smile:

Edited April 4, 200818 yr by ELENATION