Yes, it's true.

I wish people wouldn't delete posts, I undersatnd that sometimes people say things they shouldn't and they feel bad about how cruel they can be, but a simple apology would suffice.

Gailannr, I accept your apology on behalf of everyone you called names, I know as a good Christian you feel bad about your behavior but we all make mistakes. I forgive you, remember even the narrowest of minds can be pried open a tiny bit.

I wish people wouldn't delete posts, I undersatnd that sometimes people say things they shouldn't and they feel bad about how cruel they can be, but a simple apology would suffice.

Gailannr, I accept your apology on behalf of everyone you called names, I know as a good Christian you feel bad about your behavior but we all make mistakes. I forgive you, remember even the narrowest of minds can be pried open a tiny bit.

Tom, you don't have to accept my apology on anyone's behalf. I didn't call anyone names that I recall. Does this mean that you are an atheist and somehow you have the power to forgive people? Don't even start with me calling people names. I have seen and read on this forum the name calling and rude remarks! I spent a few hours reading through posts of the "worst thing people have called fat people" and then read through posts of those same people bad mouthing Bush and Christians and anyone who didn't particularly agree with that person's point of view! I don't count you (since I wouldn't know you if I tripped over you) as someone I would have to come to for forgiveness thank you!

Your Welcome

Sorry I forgot the quote and once agian your welcome, (Deleting post can be confusing)

I count you as someone I would have to come to for forgiveness thank you!

Dennis Miller has an interesting take on the Iraq war..... He calls Iraq a "giant salt-lick for the terrorists in the Middle East", because "since there is no 'Country of Al-Qaeda', this brings them out to one central place where we can fight them." I understand why a lot of people are against the Iraq war, but I can't understand why those same people don't give the same consideration to the people who think it is necessary. I have a friend who moved to Israel 15 years ago, and she has lived with the awareness that every day, for many more years than she has been there, millions of children of radical Muslims living all around her are in training to become suicide bombers or to "kill a Jew" to earn their place in Paradise. And that they consider Americans the same as Jews. Saddam was paying suicide bombers' families for successful kills, and the 9/11 attack was planned many years in advance, in several different countries. Let's not forget all the other attacks on our military and our interests by many of those same terrorist groups. My Jewish friend, who was a "dove" here, has become a "hawk" since living there... out of sheer necessity.

My BIL is a history scholar and retired professor. He still gives lectures on the Middle East, his specialty. He has studied the Koran, the old one, not the "cleaned-up" version used in the past few decades. The old one is still used in some Madrass schools and taught by radical clerics. This is the version quoted by the radicals....they don't "play nice" and they don't want to live in peace. I'm sorry, but they DON'T. That is not to say that all, or even most Muslims feel the same, and I am not saying that we shouldn't try to live in peace with all peoples. My BIL is very liberal in most things, but not in this....he believes that we have to face the reality of terrorism. That there are a whole bunch of people who really do believe that our way of life is an affront to Allah, and to please Allah they need to rid the world of us. That is a fact... what isn't so clear is how to deal with it. No one WANTS war. I don't believe that at all. But some think that fighting it now over there is better than waiting, while some think it would have been better to leave it alone or to get out now before it gets worse. I don't know the correct answer or even if there is one. I do try to respect all debate and opinions and acknowledge that there is no easy answer. I hope that others will give the same respect.

Tom, you don't have to accept my apology on anyone's behalf. I didn't call anyone names that I recall. Does this mean that you are an atheist and somehow you have the power to forgive people? Don't even start with me calling people names. I have seen and read on this forum the name calling and rude remarks! I spent a few hours reading through posts of the "worst thing people have called fat people" and then read through posts of those same people bad mouthing Bush and Christians and anyone who didn't particularly agree with that person's point of view! I don't count you (since I wouldn't know you if I tripped over you) as someone I would have to come to for forgiveness thank you!

Bush deserves it-fat people do not.

One more thought....

I found an old pre-WWII Life magazine that I thought was very interesting. There were a lot of articles in it about the war in Europe, and all the debate in the U.S. about whether to get involved. I found it interesting that the (Democratic) president was for it, and many others (including a lot of Republicans) were against it. Many of the same arguments for and against sounded like the ones being used today.... It brought to mind the old expression, "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

Interesting, no?

I understand why a lot of people are against the Iraq war, but I can't understand why those same people don't give the same consideration to the people who think it is necessary.

Bloomin'...

This thread is about more than just the war in Iraq. It's about George Bush and whether (or not) he deserves the title, Worst American President in History.

I admit that I am a rabid Bush Basher. I think he is the Anti-Christ. I think he is the most arrogant SOB to ever hold office and I wouldn't vote for him if he was running for dog catcher. He has lied to the American public, although I must admit, we should be used to that by now. I think most of them (US Presidents) lied to us. At least when Clinton lied, nobody died.

Bush didn't cheat on his wife (as far as we know). Good for him. But I'd rather that than what he has done to the country. As bad as it might sound, I don't really care about the whole adultery thing. After all, I don't even know Laura.

But I absolutely understand if you feel differently.

There was no joining of forces between Sadam Hussein and Bin Laden to bring about 9/11. They despised one another. In fact, we have probably done more to unite the Muslims than anyone else.

Bloom: Carlene is right. We've done more to unify and cause radical Muslims to join forces around the world than we have done to help the Iraqi people. I don't buy the whole argument that we'd rather fight them over there than on our own shores. It isn't a war that we should be fighting at all. We need to deal with terrorists as terrorists. They are not a country. There will always be terrorists. Have you read the news today?

People talk about how there have been no terrorist attacks since we went into Iraq. That's a convenient cop-out. It takes time for them to plan, train and carry out their attacks. Don't make the mistake of thinking they are deterred by our presence in Iraq. They are plotting and planning as we speak. We're so busy in Iraq, we will probably not know what happened when they hit us next. But it will probably go a long way in electing someone like Rudy because he'll be running on what a great, strong leader he is in a crisis. Sometimes we act like lemmings.

Bloomin'...

This thread is about more than just the war in Iraq. It's about George Bush and whether (or not) he deserves the title, Worst American President in History.

I admit that I am a rabid Bush Basher. I think he is the Anti-Christ. I think he is the most arrogant SOB to ever hold office and I wouldn't vote for him if he was running for dog catcher. He has lied to the American public, although I must admit, we should be used to that by now. I think most of them (US Presidents) lied to us. At least when Clinton lied, nobody died.

Bush didn't cheat on his wife (as far as we know). Good for him. But I'd rather that than what he has done to the country. As bad as it might sound, I don't really care about the whole adultery thing. After all, I don't even know Laura.

But I absolutely understand if you feel differently.

There was no joining of forces between Sadam Hussein and Bin Laden to bring about 9/11. They despised one another. In fact, we have probably done more to unite the Muslims than anyone else.

Wow Carlene!! Bush the Anti-Christ? And calling his mother names! I thought it was "no morals" Clinton who was the Anti-Christ! You know, the nation's sex education coordinator for K-12, among other things!

To be the anti-Christ, you must do a whole lot of bad stuff. You must do much harm to many people. You must lie, cheat and steal. You must be responsible for killing and mahem. You must be greedy. You must present yourself as good but have a really black inner-core. I think that's why Carlene made her choice.

Actually, according to the Bible prophecies. Bush doesn't fit the bill for THE anti-christ. He was born in America, for starters. He's also not a very cunning, brilliant speaker who brings hope to the world.

You're right, Leatha. George Bush is not smart enough to qualify as the Anti-Christ.

There was no joining of forces between Sadam Hussein and Bin Laden to bring about 9/11. They despised one another. In fact, we have probably done more to unite the Muslims than anyone else.

Carlene, I hope you know that I was not making that assumption. I was only making the point that terrorists are everywhere, and that Saddam was not an innocent party to the murders of Jews and to American interests. As for uniting the Muslims--- yes, we have probably done that to a certain extent, but it is impossible to know how many would have hated us anyway, due to the long-time teachings of radical clerics and to the spread of Hezbollah and Hamas who hate all things "Jewish" and consider any friend of Israel as their enemy. It is a crap shoot, and I wouldn't know how anyone could determine the correct answer.

Bloom: Carlene is right. We've done more to unify and cause radical Muslims to join forces around the world than we have done to help the Iraqi people. I don't buy the whole argument that we'd rather fight them over there than on our own shores. It isn't a war that we should be fighting at all. We need to deal with terrorists as terrorists. They are not a country. There will always be terrorists. Have you read the news today?

People talk about how there have been no terrorist attacks since we went into Iraq. That's a convenient cop-out. It takes time for them to plan, train and carry out their attacks. Don't make the mistake of thinking they are deterred by our presence in Iraq. They are plotting and planning as we speak. We're so busy in Iraq, we will probably not know what happened when they hit us next. But it will probably go a long way in electing someone like Rudy because he'll be running on what a great, strong leader he is in a crisis. Sometimes we act like lemmings.

BJean, I answered this in my post just made to Carlene. No one can really know what is the correct way to deal with terrorists. We did nothing much in the 90s because Clinton treated each attack as a "court" issue, not a "war" issue. That obviously didn't work, hence: 9/11. Now we are treating everything on a "war" basis.... maybe this won't work, either. I don't believe we can just wait for things to happen to us, maybe you do. This is a debatable issue. I don't think we are "lemmings" for agreeing with our leader. We can't ALL act, we have to have someone act for us. As long as our leader was elected, we should trust them until we see that they don't deserve that trust, while keeping in mind that they see issues, evidence and problems in far more depth than we do or can. Bush apparently has never had your trust; he still does have mine. I am not a lemming or brain-dead, just as I would never consider you that for voting differently. But until I can be President and see all that ours does, I have to hope and pray that ours is doing the best he can do, and that goes for all presidents, regardless of political party.

Let's see. How do these people in Clinton's entourage fall into this category. Just asking..

James McDougal - died on Sunday, March 8, 1998 in John Peter Smith Hospital in Ft. Worth, Texas. He had been serving a federal prison sentence for fraud in connection with the Whitewater land deal. At first, he claimed to be innocent, but after being convicted of 18 felony counts, he cooperated with Special Prosecutor Kenneth Starr's investigation of the Clintons. He was scheduled to give damaging testimony against the Clintons, although critics of the investigation say his testimony had previously been inconsistent and that nothing new was expected to be revealed. A prison spokesman said McDougal died of a heart attack and had been suffering from heart disease and blocked arteries.

Mary Caitrin Mahoney - was murdered over the July 4th weekend in 1997 at the Georgetown Starbucks near Washington D.C.. She was the assistant manager and, according to published reports, she and two other employees were working late at night after the coffee bar had closed. All three were found shot to death. No money was taken and there was no sign of forced entry. In 1999, Carl Derick Cooper was charged with the murders, six armed robberies, and other shootings. Mahoney had interned for the White House official responsible for contact with the Asian-American community. TruthOrFiction.com has not found any documentation that she was about to "go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House" or that her death was anything beyond that of a murder associated with the robbery. A report in The Washington Weekly explains that journalist Mike Isikoff had written that "a former White House staffer" with the initial "M" in her name was going to go public with a sexual harassment story and people speculated he meant Mary Mahoney and that was why she was killed. Later, it turned out that he was referring to Monica Lewinsky.

Vince Foster - He was found dead in Fort Marcy Park on July 20, 1993. Three investigations into Foster's death, including one by Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr, have concluded that the death was a suicide. Critics of the investigations say Foster's death does not fit the facts of a suicide and that there are a lot of unanswered questions about his death, some of the activities at the White House after his body was found, and the investigations themselves. Although there are numerous theories about what may have happened to Foster and why, none of them has been proven.

Ron Brown - Brown and 34 others died on April 3, 1996 when the Air Force jet carrying crashed into a mountainside in Croatia. The Air Force, in a 22-volume report issued in June of 1996, confirmed its initial judgment that the crash resulted from pilot errors and faulty navigation equipment. Subsequent controversy erupted, however, over autopsy photos. There is a hole in Ron Brown's skull which investigators say is consistent with a puncture that could have been caused by debris during the crash. Investigative reporter Christopher Ruddy came forward with an article in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review in which he quoted Air Force pathologist, Lt. Col. Steve Cogswell as saying that the hole was perfectly round shape of a 45 caliber bullet. Cogswell had not actually examined the body. Later, another pathologist, Army Lt. Col. David Hause, said he had been working nearby the Ron Brown autopsy, overheard discussion about the round hole, walked over and looked at it and said it seemed like a bullet hole to him. Air Force Col. William Gormley, the pathologist who actually did the Ron Brown autopsy, said, however, that it is more of an indentation than a hole and that if there had been a bullet, there would have been either an exit wound or a bullet found in the body, and there were not. The Justice Department had opened an investigation into Brown's financial dealings.

C.Victor Raiser II and Montgomery Raiser - On July 30, 1992, Victor and Montgomery Raiser were killed in a plane crash while on a fishing trip in Alaska. He was a Washington lawyer and described as a "major player" in the Clinton organization. Investigation of the crash by the National Transportation Safety Board concluded that it was the result of pilot error.

Paul Tulley - His name was spelled "Tully" and he was a top strategist for the Democrats and working with the Clinton campaign. He died of massive heart failure in a Little Rock motel room.

Ed Willey - According to published reports, Ed Willey was an attorney who owed the IRS $400,000 and had embezzled nearly $270,000 from one of his clients. The Willey's financial woes were a source of stress between Ed Willey and Kathleen Willey and she finally demanded a plan that would bring it to an end. There was a stormy family meeting about it on the night of November 28, 1993 and Ed Willey moved out of the house. The next day is when Kathleen Willey went to the White House to see Bill Clinton about a job. She says the president assaulted her during that visit. It was later discovered that Ed Willey had driven into the woods on the same day. His body was found by hunters on November 30, 1993. Authorities ruled his death a suicide by shotgun. There was a suicide note apologizing for the financial problems.

Jerry 'Luther' Parks - Jerry Luther Parks was the head of security for the Clinton-Gore Little Rock headquarters in 1992. On September 26, 1996, he was murdered down while driving through a Little Rock intersection. A lone gunman fired seven shots at him. This was two months after Vince Foster's death. Both Parks' wife and son have said that they believe Parks was murdered and that he feared for his life. His murder has never been solved. According to Gary Parks, Jerry Parks' son, the files were on the sexual escapades of Bill Clinton. They were not removed from Parks' house after his death. According to investigative reporter Christopher Ruddy, the files that Parks had been keeping on Clinton were taken during a burglary several weeks before Parks' death. Clyde Steelman, the homicide sergeant investigating the murders for the Little Rock Police told New York Times Magazine writer Philip Weiss that he didn't believe the theories of Parks' son and wife and that he'd found no evidence of the alleged files.

James Bunch - Shot himself.

James Wilson - He was known as John Wilson, a popular leader and political figure in the Washington D.C. area and Chairman of the District of Columbia Council. He was found dead on May 19,1993. Authorities ruled Wilson's death a suicide by hanging. According to numerous articles in the Washington Post, Wilson had long suffered from depression and had twice before attempted suicide. There is no evidence that he had any information about the Clintons or any ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson and Bill Shelton - Kathy Ferguson was found dead on May 11, 1994, five days after Paula Jones filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against President Bill Clinton. She died of a gunshot wound to the head and a suicide note was found. Her ex-husband was Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, one of those named in the so-called "Troopergate" cases involving those who had been a part of then Governor Clinton's security detail. He was named in Paula Jones' suit. According to an Associated Press article on May 14, 1993, she was found not in her living room, however, but in the apartment of her boyfriend, Sherwood police officer Bill Shelton. The suicide note said, "I can't stay here any longer. Things will never be the same for us. I can't take that."

Thirty-one year old Bill Shelton was police officer in Sherwood, Arkansas, and engaged to Kathy Ferguson. It was in his apartment that she was found dead. He was one of many of her friends who felt that Ferguson did not commit suicide and that the coroner's report was not accurate about her wound being self-inflicted. He was found a month later sprawled over her grave with a gunshot wound to his head that was similar to what the coroner had described as Ferguson's wound.

Gandy Baugh - Gandy Baugh jumped out of a window of a multi-story building and died on January 8, 1994. Published reports say he was defending a man named Dan Lassater in a financial misconduct case. Lassater was an associate of Bill Clinton's who was convicted of cocaine distribution.

Florence Martin - ???

Suzanne Coleman - A suicide victim, she was rumored to have had an affair with Clinton at one time, but there is no evidence that Clinton killed his girlfriends.

Paula Grober - Died in an automobile accident. No indication of foul play.

Danny Casolary and Paul Wilcher - Forty-four year old Danny Casolaro was found dead in the Sheraton hotel in Martinsburg, West Virginia on August 10, 1991. His wrists had been slashed. According to an October 14, 1991 People Magazine story on his death, he had warned friends and family that his life was in danger. He said it was because of what he called "the story of the century" but it was not about Bill Clinton. It was about the Regan-Bush administration and an alleged effort to delay the freeing of the hostages being held at the time by Iran in order to do damage to President Jimmy Carter's reelection bid.

Jon Parnell Walker - A suicide, presumably despondent because of his worsening health due to AIDS.

Barbara Wise - According to a report on WRC-TV in the Washington area, Wise's body was found in a locked office and was partly nude and bruised. The crime has never been solved. There has not been any evidence that her death was related to any of the Ron Brown or John Huang events.

Charles Meissner- Charles Meissner was among those killed along with Commerce Secretary Ron Brown in the crash of an Air Force plane in Croatia in 1996.

Dr. Stanley Heard - According to the National Transportation and Safety Board, the airplane crash in which Heard died was due to "AN INADEQUATE ANNUAL INSPECTION OF THE AIRPLANE AND NON-COMPLIANCE WITH AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVES BY COMPANY MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL." The NTSB says the airplane caught fire in the air and crashed while the pilot attempted to make an emergency landing. There is no evidence that we can find that links the crash or Dr. Stanley heard to any criminal.

Barry Seal - Several books could be written about Barry Seal. He was a danger-loving pilot who was regarded as the best known cocaine smuggler of the 1980's. He did not die in a car accident. He was murdered in Baton Rouge, Louisiana in 1986 by three men with machine guns and who were later arrested and convicted. They were Columbians and authorities say they were connected with the Medellin drug cartel. The Attorney General of Louisiana told U.S. Attorney General Ed Meese in 1986 that Seal smuggled $3 to $5 billion worth of drugs into the U.S. In 1981, Seal began running his smuggling operation out of a highly guarded and, for a while, secret airport in Mena, Arkansas. That airport and Seal's activities were to become a part of the investigation into the Iran-Contra controversy from the Reagan administration.

Johnson Franklin Lawhorn, Jr. - ??

Stanely Huggins - Died in July, 1994 from Viral Pneumonia

Hershell Friday - Herschel Friday was once considered one of the nation’s finest lawyers. President Richard Nixon considered appointing Friday to the US Supreme Court, but the American Bar Association felt his nomination was too controversial due to his firm’s representation of the Little Rock School District throughout the 1957 Central High School Crisis. Friday returned to his Arkansas law firm, Friday, Eldredge and Clark, one of the State’s oldest. Friday would later be a benefactor of Gov and President Bill Clinton. He died in 1994 in an aviation accident. There is no evidence that the tragedy was anything other than an accident.

Kevin Ives and Don Henry - There is no evidence the Henry and Ives case is connected to Bill Clinton. All seven of the men below may or may not have been involved in the deaths of Ives and Henry.

Keith Coney - Died in a motorcycle accident, 1988 when he struck the back of a truck.

Keith Mcmaskie- Stabbed to death.

Gregory Collins - Shotgun blast to face.

Jeff Rhodes - Died of gunshot wounds in 1989. Frank Pilcher was convicted of the crime.

James Milan- Also a murder victim, and a known criminal.

Jordan Kettleson - Another victim of gunshot wounds. And, like Rhodes, Milan, etc, was known to associate with criminals and drug users.

Richard Winters - Died of a shotgun blast.

I can't believe you made me work so hard!