Yes, it's true.

We're all glad you are involved in such an exciting major as political science. You sure have lots of material to study and debate with the events of today. I doubt if anyone here is "without any political background whatsoever." Don't get us started having to back up our reason for posting here by spouting off our educational credentials. You might be humbled a bit.

No, no no, I didnt mean that you guess dont have political backgrounds. Most of you guys have lived longer than myself....You know from experience the history of more presidencies than I. I am not calling you old however, age is what you make it out to be....Therefore I mean you have more personal experience than myself. You have been voting longer and studying political patterns and such on your own. I am not discrediting your experience at all. A degree in it is no more than an examined study of what you have already lived through and such....therefore I meant nothing of disrespect to you....sorry about that....I just feel that I am discredited for being much younger, however I study politics every single day, SO I am trying to attempt to get to some of you all's knowledge, but can never compare to your experience.. Please dont take it incorrectly.

Today is my 60th birthday. The remembering part is a double-edged sword. The details are more like looking at a family photo album...things you personally remember. But the "mood" of the time is something you almost have to have experienced to "get" what was going on and it's something that can't be easily factored out of the memories.

I was born during Truman's administration. I remember seeing Eisenhower on television when I was a kid. I remember my parents and my friend's parents being on opposite sides of the Stevenson-Eisenhower contest in 1952. So my political awareness goes back "a ways."

But, since I was there, I can't remember it totally objectively. I was a duck-and-cover kid. The neighborhood boys had wild cowboys-vs.-Indians games AND commies-vs.-good guys games. The Cuban Missle Crisis is not a page in a history book for me or a made-for-tv-movie...it was the day my senior year of high school that I took my five-pound (because that's what they weighed), green, leaky-battery (because that's what they did), portable radio (pre-"transistor") to school even though no such thing had been done before. (Girls were still not allowed to wear pants...it was the Recent Dark Ages.) Every teacher had me put the radio in the window (you had to, to get reception) so we could listen to that crisis all day long. It is an emotion-packed memory...as are the entire Nixon thing and the day the Kennedy era ended and how I somehow went from "what's the matter with these protestors?" to "why the hell did we GO to Viet Nam?" (That move took a while.)

Anyway, the having-been-there thing can help, but it carries its own baggage.

I love this country...I really do. I support our President and have done enough research to know why we went into Iraq and who (both democrats and republicans) voted for it, then changed their minds when things got hard...really hard.

Unlike most people, I volunteered to go to Iraq for 8 months to assist our military and support the Iraqi's and their new government however I could. I talked with many Iraqi's and understand the torture they went through...the family members they lost and liberties they did not have under Saddam Hussein.

That is why I love this country. We can call our pres satan..stupid...make fun of him, his wife, his girls...

Had you lived under Saddam in Iraq you'd all be dead right now....

Isn't our country great???

Thank you, Maggie, for stating your beliefs, and your personal experience is powerful. I wanted to pop on and give you some support, because it's the little you'll get on this thread.

God bless you.

Take it with a grain of salt, Jodi. It's just the classic young whippersnapper (experienced little, idealistic, think they know alot) versus geezer (experienced more, stubborn and jaded, think they know alot) debate. Add a particularly spicey topic, and it's a fun free for all.

Yeah Jodie, take it with a grain of salt. When I've posted, many times I've put something in such a way that I got back feedback from an interpretation of what I said, that I didn't mean. That's the problem with the written word, especially when done by amateurs, difficulty in making our words say EXACTLY what we mean.

I certainly am not discrediting your coursework or what you believe or how you express it! I was only wanting you to think a little about who you might be exhanging ideas with. Don't underestimate anyone here when they either agree or disagree with you. I've been surprised many times to learn that they have complete credibility due to their education and/or experiences. You were cool to pick up on that and I am very impressed with your intellect, especially since you are just beginning your educational journey.

I love this country...I really do. I support our President and have done enough research to know why we went into Iraq and who (both democrats and republicans) voted for it, then changed their minds when things got hard...really hard.

Unlike most people, I volunteered to go to Iraq for 8 months to assist our military and support the Iraqi's and their new government however I could. I talked with many Iraqi's and understand the torture they went through...the family members they lost and liberties they did not have under Saddam Hussein.

That is why I love this country. We can call our pres satan..stupid...make fun of him, his wife, his girls...

Had you lived under Saddam in Iraq you'd all be dead right now....

Isn't our country great???

It is, indeed, a great country. Did you work for a civilian contractor, Maggie?

Maggie: You're one of those I might have referred to above. I would REALLY appreciate it if you would take the time to share with us why you think we went to Iraq and why we should stay.

I think mousecrazy has it all wrong when she says you're not going to get any support here. Many times people do take exception to what others post, and there may be a person (or two) in particular whose posts come across as attacking, but generally everyone here is just wanting to state their opinions and read other people's opinions. Isn't that what this is all about?

Lucky for us, we have contributors from both sides and we can all learn a little from each other...or a lot, as the case may be.

Geezer, for instance, could probably fill a book relating her experiences. It's a book I'd like to read. (And pictures I'd like to see!)

You have a different perspective, and I'm totally interested in what you have to say. Who lives here that doesn't dearly love this country?

I honestly want to be convinced that we went to Iraq to free the people. I keep hoping that I will come to this thread and read something intelligent that will point out good reasons for our being involved in the continued death and destruction in Iraq. Our original stated intent was to destroy Sadaam and his cohorts in crime. They supposedly had WMD, and were harboring and supporting terrorists who were responsible for 9/11. We went there in spite of the fact that our intelligence community was against it, public opinion was against it and very, very few of our allies believed that we were right to intervene in the way we did.

Just because our mission has changed since the inception, doesn't necessarily mean that what we have accomplished there is wrong or bad. The fact that some of the people there have been helped by the war doesn't necessarily mean that it is good overall either.

I would love for you to clarify for us here why going to Iraq and staying in Iraq now, beefing up our troops now, is right and good.

One more thing Maggie... your comment "had you lived under Sadaam in Iraq, you'd be dead right now", may be sadly true.

By the same token, if we were members of the Armed Forces of the United States of America in Iraq, that we could be dead, maimed or mentally destroyed is also sadly true.

See, we are not just involved in the continued death and destruction in Iraq. Did you not know that we are also involved in the continued rebuilding of the schools and hospitals, and the infrastructure that will allow the people to benefit again from their natural resources? We are supporting the people in establishing a democracy in the Middle East. That is incredible and important work. It is admirable and righteous work. I am sorry that our media chooses not to educate the American people about the work that the military actually is doing; but then, it wouldn't play to the agenda quite as well. I feel sorry for those men and women who are working their butts off, completing their missions, building and protecting Iraqi troops, schools, roads, etc., and then are characterized as participating in the death and destruction of the Iraqi people. Sad.

I pray for our military personnel to be returned safely to their homes. I pray that we do not send them out again when the defense of the USA is not at risk. I pray for a new president that knows that being "Commander in Chief" does not mean that he has toys to play "Army" or "War" with.

I pray for a president that would rather use diplomacy than force. I pray for a nation that recognizes the sovereignty of all nations. Maybe then, God will fulfill my prayer for safety for our Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen.

TOM

PS: I also pray that my prediction that we will be at war with Iran and Syria does not come true.

See, we are not just involved in the continued death and destruction in Iraq. Did you not know that we are also involved in the continued rebuilding of the schools and hospitals, and the infrastructure that will allow the people to benefit again from their natural resources? We are supporting the people in establishing a democracy in the Middle East. That is incredible and important work. It is admirable and righteous work. I am sorry that our media chooses not to educate the American people about the work that the military actually is doing; but then, it wouldn't play to the agenda quite as well. I feel sorry for those men and women who are working their butts off, completing their missions, building and protecting Iraqi troops, schools, roads, etc., and then are characterized as participating in the death and destruction of the Iraqi people. Sad.

Uhhhhh, no....that would KBR (Haliburton) and other corporate giants who are doing the "rebuilding" in Iraq. In return for huge profits, I might add. This is, in fact, the first war to ever involve civilian contractors to anywhere near the extent they have been utilized in Iraq (and Afghanistan).

Americans are rebuilding Iraq (and Afghanistan) only in the sense that WE (the taxpayers) are footing the bill.

By Ellen Knickmeyer

Washington Post Foreign Service

Monday, April 3, 2006; Page A01

BAGHDAD -- A reconstruction contract for the building of 142 primary health centers across Iraq is running out of money, after two years and roughly $200 million, with no more than 20 clinics now expected to be completed, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers says.

The contract, awarded to U.S. construction giant Parsons Inc. in the flush, early days of reconstruction in Iraq, was expected to lay the foundation of a modern health care system for the country, putting quality medical care within reach of all Iraqis.

Rebuilding Iraq -- The Contractors

Even before the war in Iraq began March 20, the Bush administration was considering plans to help rebuild the country after fighting ceased. According to news reports in early March, the U.S. Agency for International Development secretly asked six U.S. companies to submit bids for a $900 million government contract to repair and reconstruct water systems, roads, bridges, schools and hospitals in Iraq.

The six companies -- Bechtel Group Inc., Fluor Corp., Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root, Louis Berger Group Inc., Parsons Corp. and Washington Group International Inc. -- contributed a combined $3.6 million in individual, PAC and soft money donations between 1999 and 2002, the Center reported on its news site, CapitalEye.org. Sixty-six percent of that total went to Republicans.

It is interesting to read some of the military blogs. These are written by men and women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Their point of view is decidedly different, and they certainly do not see themselves as victims. They are offended at the thought.

It is ridiculous to think that the President sees the military as toys. Absurd.

Our military have been used as pawns in the game that Bush and others are playing in the Middle East. I feel sorry for the people who HAVE watched and read and believed, hook, line and sinker, the propaganda that the Bush people have spread about their motives and agenda in Iraq.

If you were a military person serving in Iraq, or you were the family members of a military person serving in Iraq, would you rather believe that the president has pure and righteous motives or would you rather believe that the president has motives that are primarily for the benefit of big business and his own private cash reserves?

If you were a strong "born again" Christian and your pastor or Pat Robertson told you that our presence in Iraq is for good and righteous reasons, would you believe them, or your lying eyes?

Stating over and over here that the media has its' own agenda and is therefore not reporting the real news and not showing real pictures from Iraq is naive. Sure the media has its' own agenda, but they are not making stuff up. Even if you are convinced that they are biased or that they slant their reporting, the truth about Iraq is apparent from practically all sources available now. Except the sources that have their own reasons for wanting the war in Iraq to continue.

Some people who support the president in this, and/or have their own reasons for wanting us to continue in Iraq, can no longer avoid the truth of this situation. Saying that the media has it all wrong just won't cut it anymore. Insinuating that the majority of the people posting on this thread are too ignorant to understand anything about this war is naive and insulting.

Can we move this discussion past the Groundhog Day point? We are in Iraq. We are in Afghanistan. There is an effort, worldwide, to attack the US for its freedoms. We all agree we love our country and want to protect our freedoms. This could be difficult if under continued threat by Islamic fundamentalist terrorists to say the least. Can we grit our teeth and support this one last attempt at success in Iraq? I believe one of your faves, Hillary, is there now, meeting with the Iraqi goverment leaders, so perhaps she can work out something. I know it is in her interest to oppose Bush, but even she knows that it is in her interest to be President of a strong country, not a weak one. A winning country, not a loser.

You guys know my political alignments, but honestly....the aim is to keep Americans safe, protect our national interests, stay strong in the international arena (and not just because we are the world's doormat and meal ticket), and defend our freedom and liberty. I do not want us living in a Islamic controlled society, and I hope we are not so politically correct that we will just keep handing over our culture, one little inch at a time, until we've lost ours.

Just for the eye-opening experience that it is, look up milblogs.com and read some of our soldier's own words. And yes, I understand we have private contractors in Iraq/A-stan. Our military protects those people and assists them. I still do not understand what is wrong with companies doing that work, but apparently some people think it is wrong...I have a friend or two who work for Halliburton, and they are perfectly nice people. I suppose they are evil and don't deserve to have their jobs. How dare they work for such a company. Would the other companies like Lockheed and McDonald-Douglass and Raytheon be evil, too? If people work jobs that support the military, should they just quit their jobs? I do not understand this argument, because, it is frankly ridiculous.

Most of us are old enough to remember what happened when we backed out on Vietnam, and remember the blood bath that followed. Do we want that on our hands again? Especially since it might be on the hands of our new president, the one elected in two years...This legacy is not good for the U.S.

Let's give up the past...and deal with the present. Here we are NOW. What is best for the nation, NOW. This constant wringing of hands, despair, doom and gloom is frustrating. I realize it's fun for others, and it serves the purpose of Bush-haters, but I would rather get behind the effort and support it, for the good of the country. No one wins if America fails.