Preface:

This thread is not one for fighting. I am starting it, I can request that it be locked if it gets out of hand. This thread is to discuss modern versus traditional Christian and additional religious ideas regarding social structure and economics. This is NOT a thread for bashing religion. If you cannot contain yourself and feel you must bash someone's religion, go to another site to do so. There are plenty on the net.

Earlier today I was reading through a thread, and came across something DevilMayKare stated. Instead of hijacking the original thread I asked DevilMayKare if I could quote her here and discuss this topic. It is an interesting one, and one that has fascinated me for a few years now. Here is what she had to say:

I don't remember Jesus being so concerned about people living in comfort tho. I realize the current prevailing brand of "social Christianity" in our country today seems to teach that faith breeds prosperity, but I just haven't seen that example in scripture--quite the opposite, in fact. In the New Testament there is very little emphasis put on wealth (certainly very little emphasis of the POSITIVE sort) and much emphasis put on faith and on the loveliness of children. After all, theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

While I partially agree with Devil (kinda funny name in this case there Kare ) here is more what I feel the situation is. In the christian teachings that I was brought up with (I am baptist) faith does not breed prosperity. In fact, properity befalls people whom God believes will put it to good use, or who need to learn a lesson or two. I was also taught that through faith and God's will, what you need in life is provided for you. That word there is "need". I am not talking about an olympic sized swimming pool. A fancy red convertible. A 7 bedroom house with a sauna.

But I, too, have seen some families and some groups with the thoughts that "the better the follower, the richer the rewards". And families in church with a lot of money and toys are upheld as "very faithful and dedicated" because God has "blessed" them with so much. I never understood why the truely faithful would fall into this sentiment, unless it is being taught somewhere. This mentality of "the more you have, the more you love and are loved" has to come from somewhere.

Rob and I have been accused of this. It has really surprised us as well. We are faithful. We attend a church, teach to our children, pray together as a family, and attend many church social functions. We also do a lot of stuff that is not always looked at as "clean living" like drink, and go dancing at clubs, and swear at times. Yet we have been introduced at our church on three seperate occasions as being devout followers who have been rewarded richly for our service to God. Well yes, we have been rewarded with a wonderful life together, two beautiful intelligent and healthy children, and his will for us made clear. But then our introducers go on to speak about our home, and our jobs, and the school we want the kids to attend. Since when did this turn into a financial game? It has even seeped into our church!!

I guess I would just like to open this up for discussion because I am curious as to who else has had this happen, or who has witnessed it. Why do you think religion has decided to judge a person's faith based on his wealth? Or do you not see this at all and Devil and I are just crazy? LOL That could very well be it!!

I have a short attention spand so I did not read but as for the title. Am I Rich, yes......family, friends, joy from within, the ability, think, walk, talk and so forth and I am truly rick for knowing each and everyone of you. I have learned something from everyone here in LBT. I love all of you in God's special way.....believe or not.. : )

Teresita I am glad you love us. We love you too.

I think the "country club" mentality is alive and well in every church. If you attend a service you know the people I am talking about. It could even be just one family, but they went to their church, they did their part, and they can go back to their lives and say that they did it and look like good people for it. But I wouldn't want any less of them. At least they are there, and hopefully something will soak in whilst they sit and rejoice in the fact fact that they look like good people. My parents were like this. It was really hard for me. I made friends in church. I wanted to go to church functions. Join the youth group. Be in the choir. But I wasn't allowed. We were just there to make an appearance. We were just supposed to look like the church going family. As we would drive away my dad would make fun of all the people we saw in church. Mocking them and their faith. It was a confusing thing to grow up with.

Rob and I have a few different churches that we go to, but for the most part we Celebrate together as a family with taped sermons from our family church in Georgia. We have yet to find a pastor that we connect with so much. We are still looking for the right church here, but we are having a hard time with it. For various reasons. But every sunday we listen to Pastor Riley's sermon from the previous sunday, and discuss and pray together. When we donate right now hard goods are cent to the community church that is here locally, but the money we still give to our church in georgia because we know and approve of the charities they parse it all out to. And we also know what percentage goes to the church. One church we attended a few times here was reluctant to tell us these financials. We never went back. I mean we give 15% of our income to the church. If we are going to give we need to be sure that it is actually going to people that need it.

Oh, yes, using church to beat up others... My dear sister lived in another state for several years, but chose to not attend any of the local churches. (If God is all around, then why do you have to go to a specific building?) She was a social out-cast because of this.

I experienced this in my exhile. I do not belong to the dominate religeon in the area, and so I was treated like I was invisible. Not a happy way to live.

I've seen what you mean, about the "Favored Ones."

I don't believe that money means anything to God. I don't believe he uses it to reward us, or takes it away to punish us.

In Biblical times God reward people in many ways, but I don't recall that money was ever one of them. In fact, Jesus preached don't build up your treasures on earth, but build them in heaven. This is a short and fleeting life, compared to the eternity we will spend in heaven (or elsewhere). It's like riding in coach class - a bit uncomfortable sometimes, but not a big deal.

I was brought up in the Catholic religion and have come to believe that "God helps those who help themselves and others." Yup, I added the last two words. Richness is dependent on where one is in life, what one wants out of life, and changes over time.

When I was younger I wanted to make lots of money so that I could do X,Y and Z. Now, my focus is on getting to a healthy weight so that I can make X, Y, and Z happen even if those things don't happen to be what they were 20 years ago.

I also believe in the richness of giving to others who are less fortunate. Giving does not have to mean money. It can be spending time with an elderly person in a Nursing home, tutoring a child for free, babysitting for free so a stressed couple can get away for a few hours, etc.

As for the discussions on religious communities and politics, churches are like all other organizations. Politics is simply a fact of life when people come together in an organized community.

First of all....great thread with deep thoughts. I like a discussion that makes you think.

I don't think the answer is black and white. Yes or no. I can honestly say from personal experience that my family has an easier time with all challenges we face, including financial, when we are in church and doing the will of God. I am not sure I can really explain why this is true, but to me the key is the "Will of God". God has never failed us and has always provided as many others have shared.

After looking for a church for over 2 yrs and not attending regularly, we have finally found our church home. My DH and I both knew it was for us.....this is our new church home without doubt. I can tell you that we are so excited about getting involved and being a part of this church. In addition, we have some positive things that are happening in another area of our lives. Something we've been waiting & praying about for quite some time. Why is it things seem brighter now? I can only say it's God's will for us.

Here's a couple of passages I would like to share:

II Chronicles 1:11-12

[11] And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:

[12] Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.

So yes, God does bestow riches upon some. How do we answer who will have this privilege? There isn't an answer to this. Only God knows. Does that mean if you attend the mega church or tiny church and serve that you are doing the "will" of God and will be rewarded with riches. I personally don't think so. I will never fully understand why God does what He does. Maybe one day we I see Him face to face, I will understand. :biggrin1:

Psalms 73:12 really the entire passage talks about this topic, but for the sake of time and space, here's one verse. Here's the link for the entire passage: http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=2190116

[12] Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.

There are rich/wealthy people all around us that are not doing the will of God. Some of them know Him and others do not. So is this clear as mud? Again, I don't think it's black and white, yes or no.

I think a majority of us would agree that God provides what we need, but does not overly reward the more devout. But where do we see this mentality coming from? We know it is out there. I dare anyone to say that they haven't seen it at least once. Who is perpetrating this culture, this philosophy?

I am not religious and don't have any personal experiences to report, but here's my take on the subject.

It's marketing. People don't necessarily want to be holy, but everyone wants to be rich. By flouting riches and saying that holiness is a path to wealth, churches can attract parishioners--i.e., customers. The people who spout this sort of stuff ARE likely to be rich, because they're the ones reaping the rewards of ever-growing congregations and endowments.

IMO it's anti-spiritual in the deepest sense. It appeals to the basest desires of humans for the benefit of a few and leaves what's really important about religion in the dust. I'm always amazed that people don't see the rank hypocrisy on display; but then, I feel that way about all organized religion, and this is one of the reasons why.

"And I tell you this also. It is easier for a big animal like a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

Too bad some of the TV evangelists don't read Matthew.

That is an amazing point Alexandra. I really never thought about this, and it fits and makes sense in some of these circumstances.

Now one thing I think should be said is that it is not wrong to be wealthy. I hope that this sentiment does not get around here.

I don't think it's 'wrong' to be wealthy. I think it's how you handle it and where you think it came from. I have a friend who tells me money is like pouring water through a funnel. If God gifts you with it and you don't hoard it all to yourself, then it will continually flow through. If you hoard it and worship it, eventually the funnel is stopped up and nothing more can flow through. Sorta like the lapband.

Here's a couple of passages I would like to share:

II Chronicles 1:11-12

There is a world of difference between the Old and New Testament. There are just too many things supported in OT scripture that I think were set aside by Jesus. (One could certainly make a good case for polygamy using the OT). I would like to see a NT scripture where JESUS indicated monetary wealth was important to God. Sure doesn't seem like he rained down riches on the fisherman. Only person who made money off of Christianity in the NT was Judas.

As an aside (just because it's interesting) not everyone knows that the "Eye of the Needle" Christ referred to is an actual GATE in Jerusalem. It's narrow and low (you can acutally visit it--although it is currently blocked-up). THe only way to get a camel through it was to take everything off its back and lead it thru ON ITS KNEES.

Seriously, think about it. If Jesus wasn't just giving a poetic metaphore and this is the truth, how many BMW driving Christians are gettin into Heaven?

As far as where this mentality started... I would say with the US Constitution. It seems like "the pursuit of happiness" has been translated into the pursuit (& right) of wealth. Certainly in the past generation the "Power of Positive Thinking" and Reverend Schuller have popularized the notion of wealth being a sign of faith and goodness. Schuller's teachings and entire persona are very different from someone like Billy Graham.

Hope no one takes this all personally. It's just a discussion. I have been deeply involved in fundamentalist Christianity in the past (went to missionary school and spent a summer smuggling Bibles into the, then, USSR) and know the Bible well. That being said, I do not now consider myself a "Christian" although I deeply love and thank God everyday.

As far as where this mentality started... I would say with the US Constitution. It seems like "the pursuit of happiness" has been translated into the pursuit (& right) of wealth.

I have heard, though I can't prove it at this moment, that the original draft actually said "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of property" but someone thought better of it.

ALSO (sorry, I'm trying not to be too long-winded) I do NOT think wealth is BAD. There is absolutely no judgement as to the morality of being wealthy. My whole point is that it is not SCRIPTURAL.

There are a lot times in our society (especially our political society) where the Bible is used to back up a particular point of view. There's a whole slate of beliefs of "The Christian Right" that I keep wondering where the SCRIPTURES are to support them. Just because it's not in the Bible does not make it right or wrong--it just makes it wrong to USE the Bible to suppport something that is not IN it.

Need I say IMHO...

If anyone thinks that "GOD REWARDS GOOD" (weather it is riches or a good life) then what do you say to people who have tragedy?

I mean a family who loses a child, a person in a natural disaster, your neightbor who's house burns down...

I personally don't believe god rewards anything in this life and the reward for faith will be waiting for us in the after life....

if I believed that being good now would get me "MORE HAPPINESS" now then I'd also have to believe that being bad now would get me "MORE SADNESS"... If that were true how could I face that mother who lost her child and say... "I guess you weren't faithful enough" - I COULDN"T

So I just have to believe that we make our own with what we have here on earth and if we lead a good faithful life we will get rewarded in our after life.

Maybe I shouldn't contribute to this thread considering my personal beliefs, but I will go ahead and post because even though the core subject is not a part of how I live my life, I think you guys know that I would never intend to start trouble, bash, cause problems, etc.

There are a few things I believe that organized religion, in our society, is good at. Making money is one of them - perhaps even the best. I have always said, "If you want to get rich, start your own religion" and I believe that. I agree with Alexandra, in a few different ways. I think it's "we're rich, come here and you can be rich too". I also think it's "we look rich so that rich people will want to come here", "bragging rights", and perhaps also "we look rich so the non-rich will stay away".

I see this last one particularly at a church very close to our house. We are in an upper-middle/lower-upper class "white collar" area. We have average new construction homes on one side, and an exclusive doctor/lawyer neighborhood on the other, and we're right in between. And then, right across the street, also neighbored by nicer houses, is a very poorly kept trailer park. The church plasters all of our doors with flyers, lines our sidewalks with placards, and leaves little gifts & trinkets in baggies on our doorknobs. They do NOTHING in the trailer park area. In fact there was a person living in the trailer park who was mad about this, went a few roads down, pulled up some of the placards and stuck them in the ground near the trailer park entrance, and the next morning they had been removed.

Point being - they actively solicit attendants from our neighborhoods, and actively discourage the trailer park residents. If it was about the faith, the coming-together, mankind - whatever... why would someone's income or living standards matter?

(BTW, I have no idea if this is common practice or not, but that same church gives you a "Tithing Booklet" when you join, full of "coupons" (think of the books you get for car/mortgage payments), with a pre-printed tithing amount based on financial information you have to provide when you join the church. So once again - what is it supposed to be about, and what is it reallyabout?)

They do NOTHING in the trailer park area. In fact there was a person living in the trailer park who was mad about this, went a few roads down, pulled up some of the placards and stuck them in the ground near the trailer park entrance, and the next morning they had been removed.

Point being - they actively solicit attendants from our neighborhoods, and actively discourage the trailer park residents. If it was about the faith, the coming-together, mankind - whatever... why would someone's income or living standards matter?

(BTW, I have no idea if this is common practice or not, but that same church gives you a "Tithing Booklet" when you join, full of "coupons" (think of the books you get for car/mortgage payments), with a pre-printed tithing amount based on financial information you have to provide when you join the church. So once again - what is it supposed to be about, and what is it reallyabout?)

That's a very sad testimony for that church. Very sad indeed. Thank GOD that all churches and believers are not poured from this mold.