Preface:

This thread is not one for fighting. I am starting it, I can request that it be locked if it gets out of hand. This thread is to discuss modern versus traditional Christian and additional religious ideas regarding social structure and economics. This is NOT a thread for bashing religion. If you cannot contain yourself and feel you must bash someone's religion, go to another site to do so. There are plenty on the net.

Earlier today I was reading through a thread, and came across something DevilMayKare stated. Instead of hijacking the original thread I asked DevilMayKare if I could quote her here and discuss this topic. It is an interesting one, and one that has fascinated me for a few years now. Here is what she had to say:

I don't remember Jesus being so concerned about people living in comfort tho. I realize the current prevailing brand of "social Christianity" in our country today seems to teach that faith breeds prosperity, but I just haven't seen that example in scripture--quite the opposite, in fact. In the New Testament there is very little emphasis put on wealth (certainly very little emphasis of the POSITIVE sort) and much emphasis put on faith and on the loveliness of children. After all, theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

While I partially agree with Devil (kinda funny name in this case there Kare ) here is more what I feel the situation is. In the christian teachings that I was brought up with (I am baptist) faith does not breed prosperity. In fact, properity befalls people whom God believes will put it to good use, or who need to learn a lesson or two. I was also taught that through faith and God's will, what you need in life is provided for you. That word there is "need". I am not talking about an olympic sized swimming pool. A fancy red convertible. A 7 bedroom house with a sauna.

But I, too, have seen some families and some groups with the thoughts that "the better the follower, the richer the rewards". And families in church with a lot of money and toys are upheld as "very faithful and dedicated" because God has "blessed" them with so much. I never understood why the truely faithful would fall into this sentiment, unless it is being taught somewhere. This mentality of "the more you have, the more you love and are loved" has to come from somewhere.

Rob and I have been accused of this. It has really surprised us as well. We are faithful. We attend a church, teach to our children, pray together as a family, and attend many church social functions. We also do a lot of stuff that is not always looked at as "clean living" like drink, and go dancing at clubs, and swear at times. Yet we have been introduced at our church on three seperate occasions as being devout followers who have been rewarded richly for our service to God. Well yes, we have been rewarded with a wonderful life together, two beautiful intelligent and healthy children, and his will for us made clear. But then our introducers go on to speak about our home, and our jobs, and the school we want the kids to attend. Since when did this turn into a financial game? It has even seeped into our church!!

I guess I would just like to open this up for discussion because I am curious as to who else has had this happen, or who has witnessed it. Why do you think religion has decided to judge a person's faith based on his wealth? Or do you not see this at all and Devil and I are just crazy? LOL That could very well be it!!

I am the bread of life,

Those who come to me shall not hunger,

Those who believe in me shall not thirst

Yup, He's in your son's belly!

You know 3 loves that is so cute. When we go to church ( Catholic ) my youngest son no matter where we are seated will wave and shout out Loud - Good Morning Virgencita - Virgen Mary. He always make the Father or Deacon chuckle cause he sings at the top of his lungs and always shouts out to the Lord.

I didn't say that their weren't lessons in tragedy’s...

Let me clarify what I said... if a preacher talks about gods blessings here on earth as rewarding the people that are good, then he is basically saying that "if you're not good then you either don’t get rewarded or you are punished"... I feel that is wrong!

So my point isn't that there isn't love or learning from the bad stuff but a sane person doesn't tell someone "Because you are faithful then you will prosper and to another person who has pain and suffering that they must not be faithful".....

As an aside (just because it's interesting) not everyone knows that the "Eye of the Needle" Christ referred to is an actual GATE in Jerusalem. It's narrow and low (you can acutally visit it--although it is currently blocked-up). THe only way to get a camel through it was to take everything off its back and lead it thru ON ITS KNEES.

I knew this! Pick the Pagan!

Wow! This is definitely my kind of thread!:biggrin1: Super Daddy, that is the most truthful, beautiful, inspirational, and BEST thing I ever read on here. Thank you!

I absolutely do not believe that God rewards faithfulness with money or material things. Having faith is rewarded by the GRACE to get through the trials and bad times in life. I honestly don't know how I would have made it through the last 6 years of my life without God. After 5 years of infertility, two miscarriages, a child born with a birth defect, the loss of both my grandmothers within a year, and my mother being diagnosed with cancer, I honestly can say that I would not be here, or at the very least in my right mind, without God. I don't know how those who don't have him make it. I know God didn't "punish" me by making those things happen to me, but like he did with Job, he ALLOWED them to happen to me. Then, he brought me through them.

So, to me, my reward for believing and being faithful is the opportunity to give my problems to him and to let him handle them, while at the same time, helping me through them.

If I really try to give a reason as to why this philosophy of "faithfulness breeds prosperity" is so rampant in churches and communities, I guess I would have to say that it is because the world as a whole is materialistic and driven by wealth. "Success" is, for the most part, determined by how rich you are. It just translates over to churches and religion in the same way as anything else. Besides, just because an organization calls itself a church, that doesn't necessarily mean its goals and purpose are for God's work. There are MANY churches that have their own agendas and don't have the right "purpose" at heart. If I ever realize that I am attending one, the best thing to do would be to find another.

One thing that I know for sure is that God is jealous for our hearts. If we love money more than Him, thats idolatry. Do we own the money or does it own us.

Its not wrong to want nice things.

We are not given hardships to punish us. God remains with us even when money fails. He will never leave nor forsake us.

We are blessed in the US in ways we will may never understand, that said, Freedom is what Jesus Christ Died for...

Freedom from death and Freedom from bondages, including the bondage of living for the emptiness of riches.

The wealth comes to to wicked and the saved, Rain is promised to fall on the righteous and wicked. Only God can truly judge the hearts of men as we are deceived by our own hearts.

Our treasures in heaven come as answered prayers. I truly believe that that is the abundant life.

I never found it in scripture where He said that God helps those who help themselves. We were helpless against sin, so he made a way of salvation.

Money is only an instrument or gift, just as all of our Talents. How we choose to use them determines how our hearts are geared. Are they geared to help others or to help ourselves. And that is not mutually exclusive BTW.

I will never forget how absolutely jealous God is for my heart. Its all he wants. Not my money, not my talents but my love. He said over and over again in His word. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on my own understanding....Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all these things shall be added unto you.. All the beatitudes show us the compassion and mercy of God, not the legalism of organized religion.

God is interested in the spirit of His Word, not the Tit for Tat that so often accompanies it. His promises are true. The tither will have his needs met. I cant begin to tell you of the many times He has proved himself faithful.

I hope that we don't measure Gods blessings in $$$ if we do we run the risk of chocking on quail!!!

I knew this! Pick the Pagan!

Wait - I knew it too, I saw it on the Discovery channel. Truly. So what about the atheist - do I win also?

While I have seen some of the things that different ones of you have mentioned, it has not been often. Many years ago as a teenager, my family changed churches for awhile, because it had become nothing more than a fashion show, and flaunting of the wealth according to my parents. A change of leadership, brought a change of attitude, and harmony was restored, and teaching once again took priority. To this day we still attend this church. Wheetsin, I am apalled at how that church near you is, we have a sign/poster in the fellowship hall that says "This is not a hotel for Saints, but a hospital for sinners". We live in a small rural area, our church (Methodist) has a small congregation. An equally small Presbyterian church is just a block down the road, these 2 churches combine to host a Bible School for the kids in the summer. They have a combined youth group, who work on a project each month, to give back to the community. They just finished repairing a older mobile home for a senior woman who had no one to help her get her A/C ready, built her a ramp to replace her steps, etc.

The Pastor we have has said many things that have set well in my heart, and made me feel we made the right choice in our church home. One of them concerning the sharing of a bus with one of the Baptist Churches going to a Bible camp...he said we all needed to remember that while we may walk through different doors on Sunday mornings, we would all eventually walk through the same pearly gates. The other, during a Sunday communion, he invited ALL to partake (my inlaws church does not believe this way, you must be a baptised member of their church to partake in communion) saying this was the Lord's table, not his.

I feel more fortunate than ever reading about these churches singling people out in correlation to their income, to realise the ones in our church (if any) who are held in the highest esteem are our most elderly members, it seems they have the most to share. One of them, and she must be 90 now, is the only person I know who calls me Kathleen, she was my 4th-5th grade Sunday school teacher!! And I can still name the books of the Bible, and I keep expecting her to ask me to!! She had us working on something the whole time she taught. For example, we covered wire hangars with yarn, and we could be wrapping away while she taught class, and we discussed the weeks lesson. Then she would take us to the nursing home, and let us give them the hangars. We made cross bookmarks. She always had us working on something simple for us to give away to others, and she still gives to this day. Now if I could just get her to call me Kat!!!

Kat

Cashley, if your last post was to me... I was agreeing with ya!

I never found it in scripture where He said that God helps those who help themselves.

That's b/c it's not in there. This is not scripture. It kind of reminds me of what Kare said earlier....

Just because it's not in the Bible does not make it right or wrong--it just makes it wrong to USE the Bible to support something that is not IN it.

Just some more sharing....this is one of my favorite verses I lean on a lot: Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. I do have to say there have been times when we wrote a check to the church knowing it would be a struggle for the week. There has NEVER been a time in which we have not had what we needed. He never fails!!

Bless you 3loves, I have always read your name as 3 loaves, until I started to respond to your post. God does meet needs but there have been times when "I" thought he was not meeting some of mine, I had to learn that sometimes my "need" was really a want. I think that the widows mite was so very precious, giving out of what she didn't have. I hope to grow into that kind of faith someday.

As I said I thought, three loaves, I wondered if it was one you had, one you do have and one you believed for. I cant figure out why I thought that way, My eyes are funny sometimes!

Funny you should say that b/c DeLarla says the same thing....3 Loaves.

I,am truly a blessed man! GOD, has gave me a great wife wonderful kidds a nice home and the amercian dream. Each morning God allows me to put my feet on the floor is a gift.

Every thing we have is throuh him. And with out him we are nothing. And for my family salvation is through JESUS CHRIST!

for lbt this was a refreahing topic!

I, hope that you are all meeting your weight loss goals.JOHNQ

Wait - I knew it too, I saw it on the Discovery channel. Truly. So what about the atheist - do I win also?

Oh gosh... I just don't know how to say this w/o sounding insufferable, but here goes... I remember learning about the Eye of the Needle when I SAW it in Jerusalem. I spent about a week in Israel in 1975. I even got to stay overnight in a nunnery deep within Old Jerusalem. It was quite an experience. And other than narrow streets and walls of the old city something that always stuck in my head was this incredible cheese the nuns made.

I just can't believe that one of the things I remember about that experience is the food.

Figures.

<3 Kare, how could anyone think of you as insufferable???

But too funny about the food