So with the New Health Care Reform passed through the House. Who is for or against it?? Why or why not?

I am not in favor. My opinion (whether it's right or wrong) is why should we pay for the people who are too lazy to get a job just so they can have health insurance? Now it's different if they are disabled and unable to work. But these people who won't get off their butts to get a job shouldn't get subsidized health care that we, tax payers, are paying for!

Edited November 8, 200916 yr by TN_girl21

bob, you're right on about polls and politics in America and the rest. Except I want to take a little exception with your example using torture.

I don't believe that anyone with any sense or knowledge about torture would say yes, they believe in torture. First of all, we readily admit that when you torture someone it nearly always does cause the detainee to give up information. The problem is that it is not trustworthy or truthful information. They just want to survive the torture and will tell their captors anything they think will save their life.

Second, as a nation we decided a long time ago that we did not want to be the kind of people who use torture EVER. We signed an aggreement to that effect and if we expect our men and women who become prisoners of other countries to abide by that rule, then we must stand up and treat people (ALL people) humanely, as we have promised to do.

So I hope that Americans will be smart enough and have enough humanity that they will never decide that torture is acceptable. Under any circumstances. If we choose to torture people we will have become like the animals we are fighting.

To add to that, torture reminds me of child abuse. We get angry with a child. He or she has done something that we feel is worthy of punishment. We want them to tell us why they did it. We want them to say they were wrong and that they will never do it again. Some people believe that hitting a child will get the results and information that they believe they should have. The abuser is angry and they have the power to abuse. They get some satisfaction in punishing a child that has done something he or she shouldn't have done. They think that the abuse is justified. They think the abuse will get the best results.

The problem is, the positive results they get are simply surface reactions on the part of the child. The child is doing or saying whatever is needed to survive the abuse. On the outside, they act like they've learned a lesson. On the inside, they seethe, they hate and they want revenge. When they become an adult in a position of power over a child - they get their revenge. They take it out on a child just like their parent did on them.

It doesn't produce better people. It inflicts pain and hate and resentment and bitterness and a need for revenge.

Abuse is an ignorant deed committed by an ignorant person.

bob, you're right on about polls and politics in America and the rest. Except I want to take a little exception with your example using torture.

I don't believe that anyone with any sense or knowledge about torture would say yes, they believe in torture. First of all, we readily admit that when you torture someone it nearly always does cause the detainee to give up information. The problem is that it is not trustworthy or truthful information. They just want to survive the torture and will tell their captors anything they think will save their life.

Second, as a nation we decided a long time ago that we did not want to be the kind of people who use torture EVER. We signed an aggreement to that effect and if we expect our men and women who become prisoners of other countries to abide by that rule, then we must stand up and treat people (ALL people) humanely, as we have promised to do.

So I hope that Americans will be smart enough and have enough humanity that they will never decide that torture is acceptable. Under any circumstances. If we choose to torture people we will have become like the animals we are fighting.

SORRY, I disagree with that. Maybe in some cases. I think the CIA and FBI know what works. I just think theres too much disconnect between agencies. Alot of security agencies dont believe in the CIA, therefore they dont get alot if any support. Im for "any means necessary"! Now on the other end I read a book recently about that very issue. It was about "The new breed of interrogaters, not believing in torture. This is just my opinion, I believe in whatever works. I dont believe an accomplished CIA agent should be skewered because he hurts one of these poor defenseless detainees. I also believe whatever agencies like the CIA do should be secret, we dont need to know how they operate. Their missions are clandestine, lets keep it that way! It used to be more fun thinking about what we thought they could do(portraying them as superheroes) instead of actually knowing what they do.(actually mortal)

bob, you're right on about polls and politics in America and the rest. Except I want to take a little exception with your example using torture.

I don't believe that anyone with any sense or knowledge about torture would say yes, they believe in torture. First of all, we readily admit that when you torture someone it nearly always does cause the detainee to give up information. The problem is that it is not trustworthy or truthful information. They just want to survive the torture and will tell their captors anything they think will save their life.

Second, as a nation we decided a long time ago that we did not want to be the kind of people who use torture EVER. We signed an aggreement to that effect and if we expect our men and women who become prisoners of other countries to abide by that rule, then we must stand up and treat people (ALL people) humanely, as we have promised to do.

So I hope that Americans will be smart enough and have enough humanity that they will never decide that torture is acceptable. Under any circumstances. If we choose to torture people we will have become like the animals we are fighting.

Who decided long ago? It wasnt that long ago, and it was this country caveing to the political correctness of human rights organizations(who believe extremists deserve rights, these are the same people who believe rapists and murderers have rights!) who are ruining this country. Torture has been used for centuries, and now all of the sudden it doesnt work. Sorry definitely disagree again!

To add to that, torture reminds me of child abuse. We get angry with a child. He or she has done something that we feel is worthy of punishment. We want them to tell us why they did it. We want them to say they were wrong and that they will never do it again. Some people believe that hitting a child will get the results and information that they believe they should have. The abuser is angry and they have the power to abuse. They get some satisfaction in punishing a child that has done something he or she shouldn't have done. They think that the abuse is justified. They think the abuse will get the best results.

The problem is, the positive results they get are simply surface reactions on the part of the child. The child is doing or saying whatever is needed to survive the abuse. On the outside, they act like they've learned a lesson. On the inside, they seethe, they hate and they want revenge. When they become an adult in a position of power over a child - they get their revenge. They take it out on a child just like their parent did on them.

It doesn't produce better people. It inflicts pain and hate and resentment and bitterness and a need for revenge.

Abuse is an ignorant deed committed by an ignorant person.

Compareing children to terrorsts, not buying it.

Well that's your opinion, of course. If we were smart and we wanted an evil dictator out of the picture we should get one of your CIA operatives to take him out with one bullet.

It is terribly wrong what we've done in Iraq to our own servicemen and women. And that's before you tally up the numbers of innocent people in that country, plus the infrastructure and everything else. When did Americans (read you and me) sign up to be citizens of a country that is willing to do what we did in Iraq?

What we did in Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom. Since when has America become the land of the war mongering, home of the aggressors?

I can tell you when. When some of our big shot politicians became so greedy and so hateful that they decided to manipulate congress and lie to Americans so they could do what their hearts lusted after - waging war on a middle eastern country that they thought they could whip.

How many people - real lives - has that war caused? How many people are maimed for life? How many lives have forever been altered because of Dick Cheney's greed, Carl Rove's greed and George W. Bush's compliance? Do you really think that Iraq was about terrorists, bob?

Yes? Well goody, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

I can tell you when we became warmongers. Everytime theres a republican in office!!!

I was reading the paper today, Im sure you heard about the Obama, Joker incident with reps. They where sending those pictures to their campaign contributers. The message was, They need to keep advertiseing scare, fear tactics because theyve been working so far!! So that tells me right there, everything theyre doing is political only(not agreeing with dems on any issues).

Well that's your opinion, of course. If we were smart and we wanted an evil dictator out of the picture we should get one of your CIA operatives to take him out with one bullet.

It is terribly wrong what we've done in Iraq to our own servicemen and women. And that's before you tally up the numbers of innocent people in that country, plus the infrastructure and everything else. When did Americans (read you and me) sign up to be citizens of a country that is willing to do what we did in Iraq?

What we did in Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom. Since when has America become the land of the war mongering, home of the aggressors?

I can tell you when. When some of our big shot politicians became so greedy and so hateful that they decided to manipulate congress and lie to Americans so they could do what their hearts lusted after - waging war on a middle eastern country that they thought they could whip.

How many people - real lives - has that war caused? How many people are maimed for life? How many lives have forever been altered because of Dick Cheney's greed, Carl Rove's greed and George W. Bush's compliance? Do you really think that Iraq was about terrorists, bob?

Yes? Well goody, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

No I never agreed with being in Iraq. I do think we should be in Afghanistan, Pakistan, And we need to take care of Iran. Thats the problem with being in Iraq, we cant do anything about Iran and they know it(and the fact we had no right to go int Iraq)! Again Bush,

Cheney, Haliburton, Blackwater, all made billions from Iraq! Im actually starting to wonder what the mission in Afghanistan is supposed to be now, we didnt go there to nation build.

Heard the other day that the higher ups in Iraq have asked Blackwater to leave.

The people who complain about taxes should be really steamed that the previous administration committed us to Iraq and that those guys you mentioned, Cheney, et. al., made billions in OUR tax dollars. Because who else is going to pay for that war?

This must be what it feels like to be raped and have the rapist tell you it was for your own good.

Hi all, I've been away for a while because my mom has been in the ICU at the hospital for the past week, and before that she was in a regular room for 4 days. She's wasn't doing well. She had a blood clot in her leg and they gave her a blood thinner which caused internal bleeding in her stomach area. Then she had surgery to block the leak and that was successful they think. Now she is having dialisis because the dye they injected in her to find the leak can cause liver damage. She is 79, and not healthy. She's overweight and has diabetes. Too many problems to list here, but I am asking for your prayers for her. Her name is Dorothy. It doesn't matter how old a person gets, we long to keep them around for a while more. Please pray for her. Thanks. Patty

Patty, I was wondering about you, I am so sorry to hear about your Mom. We obviously like to disagree with your political stance but we still want all the best for you and your family.

Well said, Leigha.

And I too am very sorry to hear that your mom is having health problems. It's very tough to see your parents go through hospitalizations and procedures. We know that they can't live forever, but we want the time they have here on earth to be the healthiest and happiest they can have. It's times like this that we really appreciate good health care providers! Hope she has great nurses and doctors at her side. She's lucky to have such a caring and attentive daughter.

Patty: I am sorry to hear about your mom's health problems. I hope she makes a full recovery, but having gone through all of this with my mom, I know it is harder to recover as we get older.

My mom had problems with blood clots in her legs after she had a stroke and became less ambulatory. They eventually put filters in her groin to address this problem. As I recall, it wasn't a big procedure and she did well. Maybe your mom would be a candidate.

I wish her well.

Being that I live in the south, I receive about 3 republican propaganda emails a day, here is one from today.

We need to get rid of this guy as soon as possible!!!!!!!

>>

>> FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!!

>> Truth is not defined by majority vote

>>

>> We become like the God we worship

>>

>> I think this explains why Our Country is in such a Giant MESS

>>

>>

>> Be sure to read the bottom part, scary.

>> A recent "Investor's Business Daily" article provided very interesting

>> statistics from a survey by the United Nations International Health

>> Organization.

>>

>> · Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after

>> diagnosis:

>> U.S. 65%

>> England 46%

>> Canada 42%

>>

>> · Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received

>> treatment within six months:

>> U.S. 93%

>> England 15%

>> Canada 43%

>>

>>

>> · Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within

>> six months:

>> U.S. 90%

>> England 15%

>> Canada 43%

>>

>> · Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one

> month:

>> U.S. 77%

>> England 40%

>> Canada 43%

>>

>> · Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people:

>> U.S. 71

>> England 14

>> Canada 18

>>

>> · Percentage of seniors (65+), with low income, who say they are in

>> "excellent health":

>> U.S. 12%

>> England 2%

>> Canada 6%

>>

>>

>> · I don't know about you, but I don't want "Universal Health care"

>> comparable to England or Canada...

(I am going to assume by England they mean United Kingdom)

WHO (World Health Organization) 2000 Ranking for Health system attainment and performance:

United Kingdom 18th

Canada 30th

United States 37th

I don't know about you but I would rather be included in a system ranked 18th or 30th instead of 37th.

Thank you all for your concern. I appreciate it. Even though she is still in the Critical care unit, I have seen an improvement today. Thankfully. She actually got up into a chair for 2 hours and they turned off the breathing tube that she has down her throat for one half hour. She breathed on her own for that time. They may remove it tomorrow. They must wean her off it.

I know that we spar on and off in these threads, and I want you all to know that even though we don't agree on many issues, I genuinely care for all of you. Thanks. Patty