Lately, this has been driving me nuts. We don't all have the same opportunities for education, nor do we have the same backgrounds but we can all make an effort to improve the quality of our comments and arguments (not in the bickering sense) by referring back to some trusty critical thinking skills.

Here are just a few of the nonsensical, circular logical tendencies I see on a regular basis here:

The straw man:

When you create an argument that doesn't exist as a way to shutdown someone'a comment.

Ex:

Commenter A: "I think a preop diet plan should be treated as a prescription by the patient, not as a suggestion."

Commenter B: "Well, if you think everything a doctor says is always right, my mother got really sick by taking a prescription drug that her doctor gave her!"

See the problem? Commenter A never suggested that everything a doctor says is right. The comment was simply stating as far as preop diets go, it isn't a suggestion but rather "doctor's orders".

Ad Hominen:

In this fallacy, you attack a person instead of their argument.

Commenter A: "I think a preop diet plan should be treated as a prescription from your doctor, and not just as a suggestion."

Commenter B: "Come on down off of your high horse and stop being so condescending! We're all here to support each other and your arrogant attitude isn't helping anyone!"

See the problem? Name calling doesn't actually address the perceived problem with the argument. Not liking someone doesn't mean they are wrong, and it's a logical fallacy to let your personal feelings about a person cloud your judgment on their opinions.

False Dichotomy:

This fallacy misconstrues an argument by setting up an either/or scenario when there are multiple options available.

Commenter A: "I plan to follow my doctor's post op plan, because he knows better than I do about how this whole process works."

Commenter B: "it's not like you'll die if you don't follow the doctor's advice exactly as written!"

See the problem? Commenter A never suggested that the only possible outcomes were living or dying. There are a multitude of possible effects, including none whatsoever, that could result from not following the doctor's plans.

Ad Populum:

In this fallacy, you assume that because many people believe or do something, therefore it is safe.

Commenter A: "I plan to follow my surgeon's plans, because there are lots of problems that could arise if I don't."

Commenter B: "Basically no one is perfect, okay? We all cheated at some point either preop or postop and hardly anyone has serious complications from it. It's no big deal!"

See the problem? Just because many people believe that cheating has little or no ramifications, does not make it so. We are only a small sample of people who have had WLS, so our forum's results are already skewed. I don't know any astronauts, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

The Appeal to Authority:

Here, we assume that because someone with authority makes an argument, it is somehow correct.

Commenter A: "I plan to follow my doctor's advice on not exercising for 8 weeks post op, because of all the problems it could create while I am healing."

Commenter B: "Yeah, well I've been doing this much longer than you and I was fine excercising right after surgery. You need to be increasing physical activity as soon as possible, trust me - I would know."

See the problem? Commenter B never addressed the possible issues that could arise from exercise, but simply stated that since s/he has more experience with WLS, his/her opinion is correct.

There are dozens and dozens more of these, but this is pretty basic stuff we learned in high school. Your mileage may vary, but now you know.

Now go forth and let's all try to make sense when we disagree with other people!

Can we have contests? And prizes? I love contests and prizes...there could be one for identifying the most examples of fallacious arguments in a single post!

Seriously, thanks for taking the time. And I think the first negative reply will use the oft-employed ad populum argument. (Just in case you decide to do a contest, you know...just if.)

Okay, but is it still okay to eat a pork chop 3 days post op?

Okay, but is it still okay to eat a pork chop 3 days post op?

Don't start this carp again, Babs!!! Srsly.

Okay, but is it still okay to eat a pork chop 3 days post op?

Yes it is, if someone wants to prove that Darwin was correct.

Maybe on the 4th day it is ok.

Edited November 16, 20169 yr by 4MRB4PHOTO

Okay, but is it still okay to eat a pork chop 3 days post op?

I sense a challenge. In one utterly banal reply, I shall employ all 5 9; the above listed fallacies!

"OMG, how stupid can you be? (Ad hominem) EVERYONE knows pork chops are only okay 6 days post op (ad populum). You can just eat whatever you want (straw man), ask any vet here and they'll tell you the same (appeal to authors). You must have a death wish!" (False dichotomy)

Lately, this has been driving me nuts. We don't all have the same opportunities for education, nor do we have the same backgrounds but we can all make an effort to improve the quality of our comments and arguments (not in the bickering sense) by referring back to some trusty critical thinking skills.

Here are just a few of the nonsensical, circular logical tendencies I see on a regular basis here:

The straw man:

When you create an argument that doesn't exist as a way to shutdown someone'a comment.

Ex:

Commenter A: "I think a preop diet plan should be treated as a prescription by the patient, not as a suggestion."

Commenter B: "Well, if you think everything a doctor says is always right, my mother got really sick by taking a prescription drug that her doctor gave her!"

See the problem? Commenter A never suggested that everything a doctor says is right. The comment was simply stating as far as preop diets go, it isn't a suggestion but rather "doctor's orders".

Ad Hominen:

In this fallacy, you attack a person instead of their argument.

Commenter A: "I think a preop diet plan should be treated as a prescription from your doctor, and not just as a suggestion."

Commenter B: "Come on down off of your high horse and stop being so condescending! We're all here to support each other and your arrogant attitude isn't helping anyone!"

See the problem? Name calling doesn't actually address the perceived problem with the argument. Not liking someone doesn't mean they are wrong, and it's a logical fallacy to let your personal feelings about a person cloud your judgment on their opinions.

False Dichotomy:

This fallacy misconstrues an argument by setting up an either/or scenario when there are multiple options available.

Commenter A: "I plan to follow my doctor's post op plan, because he knows better than I do about how this whole process works."

Commenter B: "it's not like you'll die if you don't follow the doctor's advice exactly as written!"

See the problem? Commenter A never suggested that the only possible outcomes were living or dying. There are a multitude of possible effects, including none whatsoever, that could result from not following the doctor's plans.

Ad Populum:

In this fallacy, you assume that because many people believe or do something, therefore it is safe.

Commenter A: "I plan to follow my surgeon's plans, because there are lots of problems that could arise if I don't."

Commenter B: "Basically no one is perfect, okay? We all cheated at some point either preop or postop and hardly anyone has serious complications from it. It's no big deal!"

See the problem? Just because many people believe that cheating has little or no ramifications, does not make it so. We are only a small sample of people who have had WLS, so our forum's results are already skewed. I don't know any astronauts, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

The Appeal to Authority:

Here, we assume that because someone with authority makes an argument, it is somehow correct.

Commenter A: "I plan to follow my doctor's advice on not exercising for 8 weeks post op, because of all the problems it could create while I am healing."

Commenter B: "Yeah, well I've been doing this much longer than you and I was fine excercising right after surgery. You need to be increasing physical activity as soon as possible, trust me - I would know."

See the problem? Commenter B never addressed the possible issues that could arise from exercise, but simply stated that since s/he has more experience with WLS, his/her opinion is correct.

There are dozens and dozens more of these, but this is pretty basic stuff we learned in high school. Your mileage may vary, but now you know.

Now go forth and let's all try to make sense when we disagree with other people!

Great, down to earth, logical and sensible post!

@@Hammer_Down Thank you.

Okay, but is it still okay to eat a pork chop 3 days post op?

I sense a challenge. In one utterly banal reply, I shall employ all 5 9; the above listed fallacies!

"OMG, how stupid can you be? (Ad hominem) EVERYONE knows pork chops are only okay 6 days post op (ad populum). You can just eat whatever you want (straw man), ask any vet here and they'll tell you the same (appeal to authors). You must have a death wish!" (False dichotomy)

I'm ruined, utterly and completely

(Insert name calling here.)

Can we have contests? And prizes? I love contests and prizes...there could be one for identifying the most examples of fallacious arguments in a single post!

Seriously, thanks for taking the time. And I think the first negative reply will use the oft-employed ad populum argument. (Just in case you decide to do a contest, you know...just if.)

Yes please!!

If I could figure out how to mess with fonts and colours on here, I would totally break out my trusty red pen and scribble "see me after class!" On some of those posts!! Let's devise a scoring matrix for this!

@@Hammer_Down YES!!! I'll give this some thought while I make dinner...

This is the best thing I have seen on here in a while. Can we add some basic proofreading and spell check to the list too?

Sent from my iPhone using the BariatricPal App

Edited November 16, 20169 yr by MissJDVSG

SEE ME AFTER CLASS!!!!

SEE ME AFTER CLASS!!!!

Nailed it!

SEE ME AFTER CLASS!!!!

Nailed it!

Needs to be scribbly-er and maybe a broken lead?

And in this thread we are flexing our vocabulary muscles.

I'll be right back.....grabbing my Webster......