You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

The fact that we believe so differently about spiritual things is quite obvious in all of the exchanges that we've had. It is also obvious that because you disagree with me so vehemently, you at some point decided that I have no relationship with God.

Many people can have a relationship with God and still be wrong on issues. So, I did not decide that you had no relationship with him, just that you were wrong on what he taught us.

I have a very devout catholic friend who loves God and has a very special relationship with him. I do not doubt her sincerity. But I do question some of her beliefs. For instance she was taught that Mary, the mother of Jesus was a virgin all her life and was without sin. I know for a fact that the bible teaches that Mary had other children. It also teaches that ONLY Jesus was sinless. Now, what she believed to be true did not negate the fact that she had a relationship with God, it only meant that what she believed he taught was not factual.

In my friends case, we had talked about her beliefs and I shared with her from the scripture the inconsistencies her leaders had taught her. I didn't make a big deal out of it, nor did she, because what was most important was that she had a relationship with God. In the end, God will show the believers all of the mistakes they have made in their lives. I will be shown mine and you yours. Their mistakes will not keep the believers from their home in Heaven with their Father after they die. But, they may keep a believer from fully understanding God as he wants them to here and now.

So, if you don't understand that abortion is not what God would want, then when you get to heaven some day, he will clear up how he truely feels on this issue at that time. I believe, through an intensive study of the bible, that to abort a baby in the womb is wrong in God's eyes. I believe he has spoken clearly in his word about this. I don't feel that it is a gray area in scripture. Just as I don't feel that gay marriage is a gray area in scripture. Some things God has made very black and white. Others, not so.

So since the Bible says that the fetus is a person with a soul we should not abort? Shall we also stone people to death? Have sex with children? Have sex with relatives? Kill people for thier beliefs? If we follow one thing in that Bible shouldn't we follow it all?

So since the Bible says that the fetus is a person with a soul we should not abort? Shall we also stone people to death? Have sex with children? Have sex with relatives? Kill people for thier beliefs? If we follow one thing in that Bible shouldn't we follow it all?

Having sex with children or relatives is nowhere advocated in the bible. Killing people for their beliefs isn't either. As for stoning people, in the OT, God allowed for cosequences for sin. The death penalty was allowed. They didn't have lethal injections back then like we do today, so stoning was the way they delt out the death penalty.

So yes, we should follow it all.

Having sex with children or relatives is nowhere advocated in the bible. Killing people for their beliefs isn't either. As for stoning people, in the OT, God allowed for cosequences for sin. The death penalty was allowed. They didn't have lethal injections back then like we do today, so stoning was the way they delt out the death penalty.

So yes, we should follow it all.

Eve was made from Adam...sounds like the making of a relative to me...also if it only started with 2 they had to have sex with relatives in order to make people. You know as well as I do that bake then not all wives were 18...which means they were children...Jesus was killed for his beliefs. Oh you looked at my wife...lets stone him!!!

rodiguez, your points are well taken. It is impossible to follow the Bible word for word. And it is impossible to interpret it word for word. Particularly since the words have been translated and diciphered so many times over thousands of years.

I have no doubt that the men who did the translations had good intentions, for the most part, and of course translations were absolutely necessary. But it is important that we understand everything about the Bible today that we can. To embrace the Bible with blinders on is naive and serves to confuse more than enlighten.

Exactly! Well said

Eve was made from Adam...sounds like the making of a relative to me...also if it only started with 2 they had to have sex with relatives in order to make people. You know as well as I do that bake then not all wives were 18...which means they were children...Jesus was killed for his beliefs. Oh you looked at my wife...lets stone him!!!

Yes, of course people had sex with relatives! I don't know why patty would say otherwise. But that was old testament law. It wasn't considered wrong then. But you see, when Jesus came in the New testament, he made new laws. People were supposed to follow the new testament after Jesus came. I believe the only thing from the old testament that still applied was the 10 commandments. That's one reason why I don't understand why some religions don't eat pork. That was old testament law. Jesus said we could eat any kind of meat we wanted. But some still go by that old testament law about not eating swine. And yes, people did marry girls under 18. But the life expectancy wasn't very old back then, so I guess they weren't considered children, I don't know. There's the Bible lesson for today!!

lol...yeah... :confused:

patty although I don't agree with you, I appreciate your softer tone. I have a feeling that you are more like that with your Catholic friend too, which is good because it will allow you to both be more open to sharing thoughts and beliefs with each other. I believe that is a very good thing.

Carrie: "There's the Bible lesson for today!!"

Oh Carrie, if only it were true.

Eve was made from Adam...sounds like the making of a relative to me...also if it only started with 2 they had to have sex with relatives in order to make people. You know as well as I do that bake then not all wives were 18...which means they were children...Jesus was killed for his beliefs. Oh you looked at my wife...lets stone him!!!

God took a rib from Adam to make Eve. There was no sex involved.

The bible says that God created Adam and Eve and they had Cain and Abel and other children. It doesn't state that Adam and Eve were the ONLY two people created from dust. It doesn't state that they were not, either. So, perhaps God created other people at that time as well and these had marriage with Adam and Eves children in order to procreate. Or, maybe Adam's children had sex with their siblings in order to procreate for there may have been no other way and God permitted it at that time.

Mary, the mother of Jesus was 14 when she had Jesus. In our society she would be considered a child. But God considered her old enough. Males and females can have babies at the time of puberty. It is mankind who determined that a child is under 18 and an adult is over 18. Not God. Therefore, nothing was wrong there.

And lastly, alot of people have gotten killed for their beliefs. Doesn't make it right.

In your Bible all those things were okay...so why not follow them now? Because it's gross...morally wrong? Then why should we make anything in the Bible law?

These huge disagreements about what the Bible says and what God wants are the reason that we need to ensure the separation of church and state.

I know that born again Christians are certain that they have all the answers. But they do not. They just have the answers that make sense to THEM. And when they tread on our toes with their beliefs regarding the laws of the land, it is just the thing that reeks of discrimination and intolerance and the exact thing that causes religious wars, suicide bombs and aircraft being flown into the sides of buildings. Yes, we're back to that. 'nuff said.

I agree in the seperation of God and State and abortion is a huge example of that...it should not be made illegal because of someone elses beliefs...If you don't agree with abortion then don't have one!!! It's that easy!!!

In your Bible all those things were okay...so why not follow them now? Because it's gross...morally wrong? Then why should we make anything in the Bible law?

What are you talking about? I said that Adam and Eve's children didn't commit incest with each other. I also said that a woman of 14 is perfectly capable in God's eyes of having a baby. I don't get what you're asking.

This is a refreshing article. Thought you all might find it interesting.

Katha Pollitt Katha Pollitt – Wed Jun 3, 7:23 am ET

The Nation -- There were lots of young people in the crowd, and at the microphone, for Monday evening's spirited rally in Union Square to honor Dr. George Tiller. It was quite a contrast with the last gathering occasioned by the murder of an abortion provider, the candlelight vigil at Columbus Circle in l998, after the murder of Dr. Barnett Slepian. Back then, the crowd was small and middle-aged and rather dispirited. This time, people were awake and angry. It's about time. Time to demand federal legal protection for abortion rights. Time to demand that law enforcement take seriously the violent anti-abortion underground. Time for doctors to show some spine, defend their colleagues who perform this necessary service to women and reintegrate abortion into normal medical practice. Time for women to come out of the closet and talk about their abortions, so that people will realize that the woman who terminates a pregnancy is their wife, their mother, their sister, their friend.

It's time, too, to stop the pretense that the "debate " over abortion consists of two equally extreme positions, and that wisdom resides in the mushy middle, where everybody disapproves of abortion except when they want one for themselves or someone they care about. There's only one set of extremists here, the one that uses language like "babykiller," " Nazi," "murderer," and "death mill," kidnaps and murders providers and clinic workers,burns and bombs clinics and drives cars into them, posts pictures of clinic workers and their families on the internet, and harrasses patients on their way to get care. Only one side writes like this about the murder of Dr. Tiller: "But I also know joy. Not the shallow type of joy but a deep resonating joy. I feel joy that no longer will this wicked man slay the judicially innocent. I feel joy because justice, albeit of a rough variety, was visited on someone who so thoroughly opposed a culture of life and who worked so assiduously to spread the culture of death. I know joy because the truth of Scripture that those who take up the sword shall die by the sword is seen as authoritative. I know joy because I know that no longer will Dr. Tiller be sucking out the brains of people, or torturing people with saline or dismembering people in utero. How could a sane person not feel joy at the death of a mass murderer and a terrorist?"

backwaterreport/Covenant News That's Bret MacAtee, Michigan pastor and Constitution Party activist. People mock the word "choice" --it's consumerist, euphemistic, wimpy, calculated. But one thing you can say for it: It honors the individual conscience. If a desperately ill pregnant woman wants to risk her life to give birth, if she wants to carry an anencephalic fetus to term so it can die in her arms, or have her rapist's baby, or become a mother at 14, or produce octuplets, pro-choicers are not going to compel her to abort. Pro-choicers don't go around lecturing girls and women that they will blame themselves forever if they have a baby they may not be equipped to raise well. They don't paint gory pictures of the horrors and dangers of childbirth to scare pregnant girls and women into ending their pregnancies with a quick and safe termination. They don't tell women Jesus is going to send them to Hell if they sacrifice their futures to the whims of a wayward sperm -- although they might mention from time to time that the Bible nowhere mentions abortion. Pro-choicers don't blow up churches or assassinate the leaders of Operation Rescue. Only one side wants to force women to live by its so-called morality, and only one side murders and bombs to make its point. Only one side has a terrorist wing. In the days to come, let the public discussion acknowledge that.