You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

When issues affect the lives of others, then people have a right to intervene. The only issues that I would like to keep from becoming laws are those that are considered sinful. (abortion, gay marriage, legalizing prostitution, etc.)

Are the pregnant women's lives not affected...? Would you like adultry illegal? porn? masterbation? how about treating someone in a way that you wouldn't want to be treated...? Those are sins, but should they be laws? No

You obviously can't regulate ALL sins. ( Or we would have everything we do unlawful), but the hope is to try to curb sin. If we could have porn illegal, that would be great! Adultry would be too difficult to fight in court and take up alot of time and money for the legal system. Concerning masturbation, the bible isn't clear about if it is a sin or not.

The pregnant woman's life is affected, but some things can't be avoided. If the pregnant mother's life is affected, it is for no more than 9 months, and it would save a life, so it is deemed necessary.

You think that it would only affect her life for the 9 months? What about her body, her hormones, her mentality? I would think that God would be opposed to a man touching a penis for pleasure whether it's his own or another mans...?

patty: "People do have to choose from right and wrong, but they shouldn't be given that choice when it comes to murder and other serious crimes."

But people do have the choice of whether to commit serious crimes. Just because we have laws that make it illegal to commit serious crimes, it sure doesn't stop anyone from committing them and the laws aren't even necessarily a deterrent.

What the anti-choice people want to do is to prevent people from making their own choices when it comes to someone being faced with the decision of whether or not to abort a fetus. (It is not a human being with a life of its' own, and it does not even have any guarantee that it will ever have a life of its' own when it is just a fetus.)

Just because you have the belief that a fertilized egg is a whole person with all the rights of every other person on earth, doesn't mean that you are correct. Therein lies the rub. You are passing judgment and sentencing women based on your beliefs, and you are completely dismissing what they believe. You have no right to do that.

You probably do not support gun control or the banning of guns - and yet, crimes are committed with guns. If all guns were off the streets and out of everyone's hands, there would be no crimes committed with guns. But is that right in a free country? Don't you think that people have the right to bear arms and make their own decisions with regard to how they choose to use a gun? People are killed each and every day because of the availability of guns in the United States. It is against the law to commit a crime with guns, but people do it anyway. And they are within their rights in the United States to make those choices. You can't legislate morality. And yet that is exactly what anti-choice people want to do.

And the goodness of heart that we were speaking to earlier, is best if it is not simply a means to justify getting into heaven. It is more worthwhile if it is because it is the right thing for humankind - to "do unto others...." In other words, to be good for goodness sake.

Beautifully said as usual :smile: Thank you...I was feelin alone again :smile:

Sorry I've been so busy. You're never alone here. I'm sure there are people who feel as we do, but they are lurking and not up to the task of jumping into the fray.

Hope you had a good weekend. Things have been busier because we had a four-day weekend. Always play catch up after that. And tomorrow is payroll. Fortunately all I have to do is sign the checks in the morning and then here comes another weekend, YAY!

Btw, you know one thing that always stumps me is that anti-choice folks seem to think that there's a night of consensual sex when the sperm travels up the birth canal and winds up joining up with an egg - after that, they act like it's just nine months out of a woman's life in order to produce a bouncing baby and that's that. Simple enough.

But that is absolutely not real life. It's everything you mentioned and even more! Once a woman has a child, everything changes for the rest of her life. She has become a mother and that is forever. Most women don't give their babies up for adoption and thank God for that! I don't condemn anyone who does, but it is not the best choice.

The best case scenario is when there is a willing man and woman who love each other and are committed to each other and then they decide to have a child. They are prepared and they are as committed to that child as they are to each other. They spend the rest of their lives being parents to that child.

There are lots of those cases, but there are lots of other cases that are far from the best case scenario. Sometimes the child isn't necessarily planned, perhaps, but the parents are happy and willing to do whatever it takes to produce a healthy child. Even if it means adoption is necessary.

And then there are horrendous circumstances where it is the worst possible scenario for a woman to bring a child into the world. There are many reasons why that could be the case. None of us has the right to say that every woman must bring every child into the world no matter what the circumstances. We just are not equipped to make that judgement call for others. It is between the woman and her mate and their God and their doctor. That's the best case scenario for handling the circumstances surrounding the worst case scenario.

Btw, you know one thing that always stumps me is that anti-choice folks seem to think that there's a night of consensual sex when the sperm travels up the birth canal and winds up joining up with an egg - after that, they act like it's just nine months out of a woman's life in order to produce a bouncing baby and that's that. Simple enough.

But that is absolutely not real life. It's everything you mentioned and even more! Once a woman has a child, everything changes for the rest of her life. She has become a mother and that is forever. Most women don't give their babies up for adoption and thank God for that! I don't condemn anyone who does, but it is not the best choice.

The best case scenario is when there is a willing man and woman who love each other and are committed to each other and then they decide to have a child. They are prepared and they are as committed to that child as they are to each other. They spend the rest of their lives being parents to that child.

There are lots of those cases, but there are lots of other cases that are far from the best case scenario. Sometimes the child isn't necessarily planned, perhaps, but the parents are happy and willing to do whatever it takes to produce a healthy child. Even if it means adoption is necessary.

And then there are horrendous circumstances where it is the worst possible scenario for a woman to bring a child into the world. There are many reasons why that could be the case. None of us has the right to say that every woman must bring every child into the world no matter what the circumstances. We just are not equipped to make that judgement call for others. It is between the woman and her mate and their God and their doctor. That's the best case scenario for handling the circumstances surrounding the worst case scenario.

Hell my first pregnancy didn't even last the full 9 months and it was full of things I had never had to face before! Not all pregnancies are perfect or even near perfect and not all babies are born perfect and healthy. My son is 2 and has more than 4 million dollars worth of medical bills!!!

Sorry I've been so busy. You're never alone here. I'm sure there are people who feel as we do, but they are lurking and not up to the task of jumping into the fray.

Hope you had a good weekend. Things have been busier because we had a four-day weekend. Always play catch up after that. And tomorrow is payroll. Fortunately all I have to do is sign the checks in the morning and then here comes another weekend, YAY!

My weekend was okay...lots of good things, but a lot of bad too. Still dealing with the emotions from my miscarraige. My dad's dad had 2 strokes while we were there and my uncle's virtebrate in his neck ruptured and now they're just doping him up on morphine and waiting for his body to shut down. My grandfather is refusing to see a doctor for his strokes and the weekend just went by too fast. They have also decided to not give my husband a reenlistment bonus...which we were counting on...just a bunch of crap! :smile:

OMG that has to be overwhelming to think about. I hope you have had lots of help with those medical costs. Who could be expected to pay those kinds of charges! I don't know what's going to happen and I haven't been researching or paying much attention to what's happening on Capitol Hill regarding medical care, but I hope that there are some improvements coming. The insurance companies have us all in a stranglehold.

gotta hit the sack. hope you have a good rest of the night wherever you are.

Oh geez I just read your last post. What a weekend you had! Sorry your family is having such serious medical problems, especially all at once.

What's up with the reenlistment bonus being taken away? I've heard of this happening before. It makes me want to scream and march on Washington!!!

They said that the Army is "over strengthed" so they would rather pay a new enlisting soldier than one that is trained! Thankfully most of our sons medical is paid for by the army's medical insuarance!!! We would be so screwed if we didn't have that...maybe that is why some lean toward abortion instead of adoption...carrying a baby costs money!!!

You think that it would only affect her life for the 9 months? What about her body, her hormones, her mentality? I would think that God would be opposed to a man touching a penis for pleasure whether it's his own or another mans...?

About how it affects her life..... Sometimes life doesn't go the way we hope. Everything, the sins we commit, the sins others commit, even the good things people do, effects others. Nothing can be done about that. When the woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy, she will be affected. That's the way it goes. But there is another life to consider, so she's responsible to make sure that life lives. After it is born, if she chooses to give it up or keep it, that's her choice.

About masturbation.... I know that God would be opposed to a man giving another man pleasure by touching his penis, but I'm not sure about giving himself pleasure by touching his own. After all, we touch other parts of our own bodies for pleasure. We scratch itches, rub our arms or shoulders to massage them, etc. I can't really comment on that issue, because like I said, the bible isn't clear on that one.