Finally, this barbaric practice can end!!!!

rrod: I didn't think that your post was completely clear about what you did about the terrible problems your baby had before she was born. I assumed that you didn't find out about all of her medical problems until the 25th week of your pregnancy. Did you go to full term and deliver her?

Although the answers aren't relevant to the question, "was I wrong?" You made the best decision you could make at the time, with all of the information and emotions and beliefs that you had at the time. Whatever you did, it is certainly not for any of us to decide whether you made the right decision. That decision was between you and your husband and your doctor. No one else has any right to tell you that what you chose to do was right or wrong.

I too am very sorry for your loss. Of course you still grieve for your daughter. I will always grieve for my grandson, Jake, who was stillborn. Everytime we see a rainbow, we think that Jake is reminding us of his love. The day he died, we had the most beautiful rainbow any of us had ever seen.

We found out that there were a few of the problems a while earlier but we could live with the clubed feet and heart problems but at 25 weeks we found out about all of the other problems and decided that if she was going to live a life of pain then we didn't want to do that to her so we made the decision to deliver her early knowing that she would die. It WAS a hard decision being as young as we were, but we have gone on to have three beautiful daughters and our son that we already had and I am thankful every day that they are all healthy. My son has Tourettes but that is pretty easy to deal with now that we have practice with it. He was diagnosed at age six but started showing symptoms at age three so we have been dealing with this for twelve years and are used to his tics. The good Lord will only give you what you can handle and having three daughters with a Mexican father is a lot to deal with. Three princesses wanting attention from one man but he brought it on himself. i thank you all for the support . I come from such a large family that I have had the support for this from the begining and my husband is supportive. My Miquela (pronounced me-KAY-la) is in a better place now and I will see her again.:clap2:

Sadly I think this topic is pathetic and so out of place. Personally the topic of abortion is one that is private between those involved and no one else. Im sick of people trying to mix there religous views with Gov't and even more sick of seeing people trying to post there views everywhere.

When religous fundamentalists cant see past themselves that when you know they have a problem and when they cant see that not everyplace is for them to constantly post about there personal view we may then be all better. Untill then Im happy knowing that some people still beleive that its my body my choice and that regardless of what anyone else thinks they would support me in any desicion I would make.

To be perfectly honest if the boards are going to be off topic debates of this nature I dont belive that I really belong here and may begin to look elsewhere for support. Because I am truly offended and sick of people rubbing there views in my face so your anti abortion good for you now go put your life where your mouth and beliefs are and adopt a child or go be a big brother or sister or go help an unwed mom raise her kid or take care of kids in a shelter but shut-up already. Or go pray because I know that my god expects me to take posative actions in my life to make better changes for the world not to sit on a corner and shout and push my opinions on someone else I am proactive and very much involved in my community and work with those who are less fortunate and at no point in time do I try to tell them what they should or should not do or how I would do it................

Umm this is rants and raves right? If you don't like it then don't come in here. Simple as that. Stay on the general discussion pages and not in the hot topics.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eva- Thanks for your post. Your feelings are just as valid as anyone elses. I personally hope that you don't feel so upset by the discussions on this thread and others at Rants and Raves that you don't participate. I too am sick to death of some of the stuff that is posted, but I refuse to allow them to believe that they have the upper hand just because we sit back and let them spew their venom. I feel it is my duty to continue to state my case and in many threads, have the opposing view.

If you are only here for Lap Band support then you probably should steer clear of Rs & Rs. But frankly, we could use more people like you stating their opinions!

now if we can just get all abortion outlawed and the adoption process faster and cheaper.

Thanks for your post, Jon. Hopefully we're headed down that road.

Jon I hope you realize that outlawing abortion will not prevent abortions.

You are concerned with the health and well-being of the pregnant woman, aren't you? How can we keep an illegal, unsafe abortion from being done on an extremely overwrought, desperate woman?

Unfortunately adoption comes with no guarantees. Sometimes it turns out well for the child, sometimes it does not. We shouldn't pretend that adoption is always the perfect answer to an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy just because we wish it to be so.

I am definitely a proponent of less expensive adoptions too! How do you propose that we go about making that happen?

P. Kennedy, D-R.I., says that he is prochoice, but still a good catholic. The Bishop begs to differ. Traditional prolife catholics are supporting the bishop while liberal dems and much of the main stream media (suddenly showing a deep reverence toward matters of faith, who knew?) are claiming the bishop is out of line. A Providence newspaper printed various opinions of citizens. Regarding politicians who are pro-abortion and yet claim to be good christians. One resident was quoted as saying,"If they believe they're a good Christian, whose to say they're not?' That captures the spirit of our age. Moral relativism. If someone believes something to be true then it must be true for him. Facts be damned. What other core principles of christianity can be rejected and still allow a person to be a good christian? If someone rejects the authority of the Pope, can he still be a good Catholic? (These people are usually known as protestants) What about someone who does not believe in Jesus' divinity? (They're usually called Unitarians) What if some one does not believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead? They're called United Church of Christ ministers) What if someone does not believe that God even exist? (these people are usually called talk show hosts on MSNBC) The answer to these is Yes. According to moral relativism, it doesn't matter if you believe all or some or none of the words in the bible. As long as you feel you are a good christian, you are.

A college professor reports the diversity movement took over higher education in earnest in the 1990's, with students being taught the joys of multiculturalism and the notion it is absolutely true there is no absolute truth. But now, according to this same liberal professor, they are complaining constantly about student behavior. When they taught students to "question authority", they didn't mean their authority.

When we replace belief in objective truth with moral relativism, we are telling people they are the one true source of morality, and that leads them to believe they are all, in a sense little gods and goddesses who should not be told what to do. Pretty soon we are dealing with little sociopaths who feel they are the center of the earth. So, despite skipping every class, the student feels she deserves an"A". Despite promoting the slaughter of innocent babies, the congressman feels he is a good christian. We really should pity and pray for these misguided souls. (Bill Dunn, a freelance writer)

P. Kennedy, D-R.I., says that he is prochoice, but still a good catholic. The Bishop begs to differ. Traditional prolife catholics are supporting the bishop while liberal dems and much of the main stream media (suddenly showing a deep reverence toward matters of faith, who knew?) are claiming the bishop is out of line. A Providence newspaper printed various opinions of citizens. Regarding politicians who are pro-abortion and yet claim to be good christians. One resident was quoted as saying,"If they believe they're a good Christian, whose to say they're not?' That captures the spirit of our age. Moral relativism. If someone believes something to be true then it must be true for him. Facts be damned. That's the whole basis for the conservative movement and the lies they spread. What other core principles of christianity can be rejected and still allow a person to be a good christian? If someone rejects the authority of the Pope, can he still be a good Catholic? (These people are usually known as protestants) What about someone who does not believe in Jesus' divinity? (They're usually called Unitarians) What if some one does not believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead? They're called United Church of Christ ministers) What if someone does not believe that God even exist? Therefore, the protestants, unitarians and united church of Christ ministers are not good christians because they have differences in their beliefs? (these people are usually called talk show hosts on MSNBC) I watch MSNBC - Joe , Mika, Andrea Mitchell, Kelly O'Donnell, Norah O'Donnell, Chris Matthews (Catholic), Keith Olberman, Rachel Maddow and Ed Shultz, and I haven't heard one of them say they believe God doesn't exist. The answer to these is Yes. According to moral relativism, it doesn't matter if you believe all or some or none of the words in the bible. As long as you feel you are a good christian, you are.

A college professor reports the diversity movement took over higher education in earnest in the 1990's, with students being taught the joys of multiculturalism and the notion it is absolutely true there is no absolute truth. But now, according to this same liberal professor, they are complaining constantly about student behavior. When they taught students to "question authority", they didn't mean their authority.

When we replace belief in objective truth with moral relativism, we are telling people they are the one true source of morality, and that leads them to believe they are all, in a sense little gods and goddesses who should not be told what to do. Pretty soon we are dealing with little sociopaths who feel they are the center of the earth. So, despite skipping every class, the student feels she deserves an"A". Despite promoting the slaughter of innocent babies, the congressman feels he is a good christian. I don't think anyone promotes the killing of innocent babies. I think they are upholding the law of the land and allowing women to choose how to control their uteri. In other words, keeping the government out of women's bodies.

I'm glad you're finally citing your sources, patty.

As for Mr. Dunn, he's preaching in the same tone and saying the same kinds of things that make good people live under a heavy cloak of guilt. That guilt has nothing to do with goodness. It has everything to do with being judgemental and condescending and holier than thou.

If Americans are beginning to think for themselves instead of having preachers and politicians and the Pope telling them what they should think and believe, then it is a very good thing.

The extremist right wing seem to believe that intelligence and independent thinking have no place in the world today. We must all follow the path that some PEOPLE have laid out for us because they say they are guided by the Lord.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) through their actions and their words, we see that they are not divinely inspired and not worthy of our respect.

{QUOTE}Therefore, the protestants, unitarians and united church of Christ ministers are not good christians because they have differences in their beliefs?

The point was that the bible is God's word, and if you 're a Christian, and believe any differently than what it says, you are not right in what you believe. These differing christian denominations do not use the book as their guideline for thier statements of faith or their stand on issues, mainly because mankind has it within himself to desire to do as he sees fit and if someone (God)disagrees with what they want to do or what they find acceptable , they will start a new church (another denomination) where what they feel is okay is accepted. This is why we have so many denominations in our faith. Men sin. period. They want to be allowed to sin, yet they also want to be 'good' christians, so they attend where their 'sins' will be accepted. God fortold that this would happen in the bible in

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when men would not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires. they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

A fine example of this is in a certain denomination that will allow Gay clergy to preach from their pulpits. It says that homosexuality is a sin in the bible. It also states the requirements for being a preacher of the word. Someone who is upright and a good example to his congregation. The gay community don't want to call their actions sinful, because it is their desire to have sex with the same sex, yet, their are some who want to be Christians. So they find a church where their sin is accepted, and now, they have others who are committing the same sin validating their lifestyle and so, they feel they are 'good.' When in 'fact,' they are not living as 'good' Christians.

{QUOTE}Therefore, the protestants, unitarians and united church of Christ ministers are not good christians because they have differences in their beliefs?

The point was that the bible is God's word, and if you 're a Christian, and believe any differently than what it says, you are not right in what you believe. These differing christian denominations do not use the book as their guideline for thier statements of faith or their stand on issues, mainly because mankind has it within himself to desire to do as he sees fit and if someone (God)disagrees with what they want to do or what they find acceptable , they will start a new church (another denomination) where what they feel is okay is accepted.Wow! I'll bet all those denominations, including all the protestant ones, would be surprised to learn that they are not using the bible as the basis of their teachings/faith. This is why we have so many denominations in our faith. Men sin. period. They want to be allowed to sin, yet they also want to be 'good' christians, so they attend where their 'sins' will be accepted. God fortold that this would happen in the bible in

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when men would not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires. they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

A fine example of this is in a certain denomination that will allow Gay clergy to preach from their pulpits.I thought it was gay sexual activity that was the sin, not being a homosexual. So now, just being a homosexual precludes one from being a member of the clergy? It says that homosexuality is a sin in the bible. It also states the requirements for being a preacher of the word. Someone who is upright and a good example to his congregation.I think a bigger sin is what many bishops of the Catholic church committed when they hid the sexual abuse of children by their priests and just moved the priests around until it became public with the lawsuits by the victims. Now these same bishops want to profess moral authority over many issues. They lost that moral authority in my opinion. The gay community don't want to call their actions sinful, because it is their desire to have sex with the same sex, yet, their are some who want to be Christians. So they find a church where their sin is accepted, and now, they have others who are committing the same sin validating their lifestyle and so, they feel they are 'good.' When in 'fact,' they are not living as 'good' Christians.

So what christian denomination gets it right?

Good question, Cleo's. The poster will quickly tell you that all organized religion is lousy. She's found one she can live with, but it is far from perfect. So I think that only the all-knowing Church of Patty is the only one we can all trust to interpret the Bible and tell us how to live.