Someone recently passed this article on to me, which I posted on another board. It was promptly removed. So sad . . .

Frightening News from France

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently

not being reported as it should. To give you an idea

of what's going on in France where there are now

between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews,

here is an email that came from a Jew living in

France. Please read! Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?

"I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to

everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back

and do nothing." Nowhere have the flames of

anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France:

Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set

on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center

was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and

Marseilles; so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently.

A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with

Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred

Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" were

painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a

Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The

bus that takes Jewish children to school in

Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen

10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past

30 days. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been

defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to the gas

chambers" and "Death to the Jews."

A gunman opened fire on a Kosher butcher's shop

(and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse , France;

a Jewish couple in their 20s were beaten up by five

men in Villeurbanne , France . The woman was

pregnant; a Jewish school was broken into and

vandalized in Sarcelles , France . This was just in

the past week.

So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a

friend, or merely a person with the capacity and

desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do,

at least, these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let

yourself become deluded into thinking that this is

no t your fight. I remind you of what Pastor

Neimoller said in World War II: "First they came for

the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I

wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and

I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they

came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up,

because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one left to speak up

for me".

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the

Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and,

unlike them, France exports more than just oil and

hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes.

Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott

their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If

we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and,

whatever else we may know about the French, we most

certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a

hurricane in the face of well directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends,

and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of

good conscience that you know and let them know

that you and the people that you care about need

their help. The number one best selling book in

France is "September 11: The Frightening Fraud,"

which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon."

I also respect everyone even if I disagree with them in many areas, including athiests and those of all religions. I think you are gravely mistaken, and the way is indeed very narrow, as Jesus said. And yes, He did die for all of us, but only for those who accept His free gift of salvation. No, there are no fences in Heaven, and the New Testament only recognizes two types of peoples - Believers and Non-Believers. There is nothing in between!

Ron....(and all)

I'm going to go walk my dog now. Thanks for all the stimulating conversation. I will be back later.

For the record, I just want to say that I respect all religions and beliefs. I respect Atheists, too. In general, I have found them to be highly intelligent people - thus their drive to question and to look for proof what the rest of us sit back and accept on faith.

I believe that there is room in heaven for all who want to go there. And even though the Bible says "narrow is the way", I think it's not as narrow as some people's minds.

Jesus did not die for Catholics, for Baptists, for Methodists, or LDS members. He died for ALL of us - so that our sins might be forgiven. Let's don't be making him build a bunch of fences in heaven so some of us won't be disappointed to know the others got there!

I think the answer to everything you just wrote about why some laws are built upon a biblical foundation and others are not is because people in thei country are from every mindset and belief, and everyone gets to vote. That is what a democracy is all about. We do not have state mandated religion.

Two thoughts about that. One, if there are enough people to vote in some laws based on the Bible, why aren't there enough to vote in all of them? And more important, why do I not hear anywhere near the converstation about some of them as I do about gay marriage?

We all inherit the sin of Adan and Eve and are therefore sinners from the womb. Sin is not mearly an act, it is a condition, but God has provided a a way out through salvation.

So if they are automatically guilty of sin upon...conception, let's say (or insert state between conception and sentient life here) what happens to the fetus that dies in utero? Or during birth? Or say for the first few hours of life spent in the NICU, before being allowed visitors, let alone any means of salvation? Are they sent to hell by virtue of physically not being able to seek salvation?

So if they are automatically guilty of sin upon...conception, let's say (or insert state between conception and sentient life here) what happens to the fetus that dies in utero? Or during birth? Or say for the first few hours of life spent in the NICU, before being allowed visitors, let alone any means of salvation? Are they sent to hell by virtue of physically not being able to seek salvation?

Wheetsin - that is a very fair question My beleif and the way I understand it to be is that judgement is not passed on those who have not reached the age of accountabilty. For some, that means a certain age. For me, I beleive that to mean when you reach an age that you have the capacity to comprehend and either accept or reject Jesus. It would also apply to those with mental handicaps that don't allow then to comprehend. Hope that helps.

Thanks, ousooner. That's something I've always had a hard time grasping. We are inherently sinners, but only held accountable for our sins (in some teachings) once we reach a point of accountability. But obviously that could vary person to person. And as you mentioned, there are some who may never get there due to mental disabilites. And there are people on our earth for whom it's entirely possible to live a complete life, or at least complete to the point of accountability, and never hear of Jesus or god in any form. What of them? Can they be held spiritually accountable for not seeking salvation if they don't know it exists? Or if "the word" has never gotten to them?

I am not sure I have the answer to that but my feeling is that at one point, most of the laws were based upon a biblical foundation, but as liberalism has changed the American political landscape, laws contrary to scriptural principals have been voted in. I also think that the gay marriage issue is a hot button with non-liberal Christians, and even some liberal Christians so it is in the forefront. I am not a politicial so these are stictly my opinion.

Two thoughts about that. One, if there are enough people to vote in some laws based on the Bible, why aren't there enough to vote in all of them? And more important, why do I not hear anywhere near the converstation about some of them as I do about gay marriage?

I happen to agree with you on this, although this is an area that is not addressed specificially in scripture. But knowing that God is just, this seems to be in harmony with the nature of God.

Wheetsin - that is a very fair question My beleif and the way I understand it to be is that judgement is not passed on those who have not reached the age of accountabilty. For some, that means a certain age. For me, I beleive that to mean when you reach an age that you have the capacity to comprehend and either accept or reject Jesus. It would also apply to those with mental handicaps that don't allow then to comprehend. Hope that helps.

I am not sure I have the answer to that but my feeling is that at one point, most of the laws were based upon a biblical foundation, but as liberalism has changed the American political landscape, laws contrary to scriptural principals have been voted in. I also think that the gay marriage issue is a hot button with non-liberal Christians, and even some liberal Christians so it is in the forefront. I am not a politicial so these are stictly my opinion.

I've never understood why homosexuality is such an issue for so many, when the Bible doesn't make a distinction that one sin is worse then another. I do have a theory, but it's just that, my theory.

Wheetsin,

I agree completely with Ousooner on the issue of children and mentally handicaped, so I would alike to address you question about those who live in primitive areas and have never had a chance to heat the Gospel.

While those areas are now very few and far between, it is a valid issue. We are told in Romans that God makes himself know through creation itself, so that everyone is "without excuse" before a holy God. The Bible also say's that "to whom much is given, much is required" which implys that to whom receives less, less is required. My understading is the God reveals Himself to all people, including those in primitive areas and cultures, and they are help accountable for their sin to the extent that they have been privy to the knowledge of the Lord.

Thanks, ousooner. That's something I've always had a hard time grasping. We are inherently sinners, but only held accountable for our sins (in some teachings) once we reach a point of accountability. But obviously that could vary person to person. And as you mentioned, there are some who may never get there due to mental disabilites. And there are people on our earth for whom it's entirely possible to live a complete life, or at least complete to the point of accountability, and never hear of Jesus or god in any form. What of them? Can they be held spiritually accountable for not seeking salvation if they don't know it exists? Or if "the word" has never gotten to them?

All sin is sin before God and seperates us from Him. But homosexuality is called an abomination by God and is aalso a sin against nature. It also defiles the marriage covenant which is something that is very precious to God. So precious that he describes his relationship to His church as a marriage.

I've never understood why homosexuality is such an issue for so many, when the Bible doesn't make a distinction that one sin is worse then another. I do have a theory, but it's just that, my theory.

While those areas are now very few and far between, it is a valid issue. We are told in Romans that God makes himself know through creation itself, so that everyone is "without excuse" before a holy God. The Bible also say's that "to whom much is given, much is required" which implys that to whom receives less, less is required. My understading is the God reveals Himself to all people, including those in primitive areas and cultures, and they are help accountable for their sin to the extent that they have been privy to the knowledge of the Lord.

Then let's focus on "sin" for a second. Let's say these remote people somehow "should" know about god. How could they know what is or is not sin if they have no bible (or ability to read)? Murder, cannibalism, incest, rape, homosexuality, adultery, etc. are not sins in their culture, they are part of every day life and often integrated into their version of a justice system. How are they held accountable for their sin when they have no concept of sin? And how is their sin defined, when sin is largely a cultural context - given they have no record of how sin is defined biblically?

So if they are automatically guilty of sin upon...conception, let's say (or insert state between conception and sentient life here) what happens to the fetus that dies in utero? Or during birth? Or say for the first few hours of life spent in the NICU, before being allowed visitors, let alone any means of salvation? Are they sent to hell by virtue of physically not being able to seek salvation?

This type of question always brings to mind similar issues, like what about all those people for the last two thousand years that never heard of Christ? Will they burn in hell for eternity? This type of argument in every religious environment is why I rejected organized religion when I was about 12 years old. Every religion says they are the only "right" way and everyone else shall burn. Everyone has their own little man-made document that they claim is the word of God, and of course that document tells them that everyone else is wrong.

When I try to contemplate the Universe I see something that is such a marvel I can't help but imagine that there must be some sort of design or purpose involved. I'm open to the possibility that there is some sort of larger guiding force in the Universe. But it also seems obvious that if such a guiding force does exist, such an entity would exist on a level far beyond anything a mere human could even begin to comprehend.

Here we are, living out our lives on a tiny speck of land, circling a sun that is light years from the closest other sun, in a universe filled with more suns than the human mind can comprehend, where distances between things are also far behond anything that we humans can comprehend. Our minds are incapable of imaninging how it started, we are similarly unable to imagine its boundaries, and we can't imagine when it will end, if it will end, or even what it would mean if it did end.

Yet we are somehow able to convince ourselves that God has singled out a small group of us here on this tiny planet, and offered us a way to go to heaven (whatever that is), but has excluded all the other perfectly good human beings and sentenced them to damnation (even if they are without fault because they never even heard of the one "true" religion). And of course, this is the same thing that is believed by every other group of humans, who also thinks they have been singled out, has the only "right" way, leaving all other groups to damnation.

I just don't get it, folks. In a sense I wish I did because it seems to bring comfort to a lot of people. But I cannot take seriously a planet full of little tribes, each of which is convinced that its religion is the only "right" one, and that everyone else will burn. I understand that most of us were taught to believe this type of thing. But does there ever come a time when we, as thinking entities, just take a step back and think this through for ourselves?

Yet we are somehow able to convince ourselves that God has singled out a small group of us here on this tiny planet, and offered us a way to go to heaven (whatever that is), but has excluded all the other perfectly good human beings and sentenced them to damnation (even if they are without fault because they never even heard of the one "true" religion). And of course, this is the same thing that is believed by every other group of humans, who also thinks they have been singled out, has the only "right" way, leaving all other groups to damnation.

This is one of the things I've struggled most with. I still don't have a perfect answer, but I'm starting to believe that God goes by many names, and there are many paths to Him.

Yes, I realize that's not the usual Biblical stance.

THis is not addressed specificially in scripture except to the extent that I just mentioned. What I am going to say now is my opinion as opposed to scriptural - We are all edowed with a conscience, and I have to believe that it is a matter of conscience to know certain things are sin or wrong, such as murder, canibalism and stealing. The Bible does teach that certain things are sin to us if we believe they are sin. On that basis, the most grevious acts would be sin, although they would not know the terminology, because in their conscience they know it is wrong. And there would be certain behaviours that we would consider sin today based upon scripture, that because of their culture and conscience, I don't believe it would be held against them.

Again, this is one of very few areas that are not addrssed specifically in scripture, so we need to trust God that He is just and righteous.

Then let's focus on "sin" for a second. Let's say these remote people somehow "should" know about god. How could they know what is or is not sin if they have no bible (or ability to read)? Murder, cannibalism, incest, rape, homosexuality, adultery, etc. are not sins in their culture, they are part of every day life and often integrated into their version of a justice system. How are they held accountable for their sin when they have no concept of sin? And how is their sin defined, when sin is largely a cultural context - given they have no record of how sin is defined biblically?

So now, leaving the bible out of it - sin is defined by culture. This is why things that we find taboo other cultured find common place, and vice versa. There is no absolute when it comes to sin because it cannot be absolutely known or absolutely applied (as in without exception). Culture is conditioned, and in small societies rarely changes. Standalone societies as well as those integrated into larger ones. You aren't born with an inherent culture set (though some could argue that a culture with enough longevity could become ancestoral knowledge, but that's another thread), or an understanding of right and wrong. It's taught. The only thing separating any of us from any of the people who commit these taboos as commonplace is 1) our experiences and 2) our gentic capacity for the thought or action. This means that a child born into a culture where cannibalizing ones fallen enemy is a sign of heroism and manhood, is almost guaranteed to do the same as an adult, and teach the same to his children.

Sin as a relative factor doesn't have much impact.

I've often wondered - if the bible is divinely inspired, and god is perfect, why did god forget or neglect to cover this territory?