This a simple poll. I am not trying to start any kind of philosophical debate here.

There is no need to qualify you answer with a comment. I don't expect anyone to be converted here.

I have tried to keep this short and inoffensive. If you are offended, get therapy immediately.

sam: "Is it different or ok for you to tell us what not to believe? You claim these people are close minded to what out there or your beliefs. Aren't you being close minded to theirs?"

I am not telling anyone what to believe at all. I am merely hoping that people will be open to expanding their spirituality.

And I am not being closed minded at all. I have experienced what they've said that they believe. I too have believed it. I am not at all saying that anyone should not believe whatever they choose or whatever fulfills their own needs.

Some others, on the other hand, have said that if we do not share their beliefs, we are going to hell. They've said that we are immoral if we don't share their beliefs on homosexuality, on a woman's right to choose, on even whether the Bible is in fact the unedited word of God.

You have misinterpreted my posts absolutely. I do not claim to have any authority over others' behavior or beliefs. I do not tell people that they are going to hell if they don't believe as I do.

What I have said is that one should be open to further expansion of one's spirituality beyond the conventional lessons we learned in Sunday school. I don't understand how anyone can feel threatened by that.

sam: "Is it different or ok for you to tell us what not to believe? You claim these people are close minded to what out there or your beliefs. Aren't you being close minded to theirs?"

I am not telling anyone what to believe at all. I am merely hoping that people will be open to expanding their spirituality.

And I am not being closed minded at all. I have experienced what they've said that they believe. I too have believed it. I am not at all saying that anyone should not believe whatever they choose or whatever fulfills their own needs.

Some others, on the other hand, have said that if we do not share their beliefs, we are going to hell. They've said that we are immoral if we don't share their beliefs on homosexuality, on a woman's right to choose, on even whether the Bible is in fact the unedited word of God.

You have misinterpreted my posts absolutely. I do not claim to have any authority over others' behavior or beliefs. I do not tell people that they are going to hell if they don't believe as I do.

What I have said is that one should be open to further expansion of one's spirituality beyond the conventional lessons we learned in Sunday school. I don't understand how anyone can feel threatened by that.

I do not fell threatened by that. I do not disagree with you or Christians. I am still finding my way. I did not attend Sunday School so I didn't learn many conventional lessons. I did not grow up in a conventional family. For me to expand my spirituality I should also be willing to learn and also be open to Christianity. I have talked to many Christians and i have been to many different kinds of churches. Some people are more passioniate about things than others. You seem pretty passioniate about the subject too. I admire these qualities in people. I admit there are people out there that take things to the extreme. Most Christians aren't forcing God down our throats they are being passioniate about their faith. I just don't understand how anybody can be threatened by that.

Christians only see black and white, there is no in between. Either you believe in God or you're a sinner.

Actually, It's "either you believe in God or you don't believe in God". We are ALL sinners. Believers as well as unbelievers.

Other types of spirituality that I have heard about are not nearly as rigid, and therefore, in my opinion, not close-minded at all. Christianity really is a straight and narrow path, and I have heard many of them refer to it as such.

Debbie

There is only one way to your Cretaor. Someone has to be right. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life, and no man comes to the Father but through me." You can't read that any differently. He also said He is the ONLY way, so what else are we to do? It is good to be 'rigid' when you have the right answer.

Good! You seem to be a very open-minded person from your last post. That is all I'm suggesting that we try to be.

I will add that if you do not feel the least bit threatened by extremists who do try to force their personal beliefs down down your throat, then you are a someone with very strong personal convictions. It sounds like you must be able to listen to all sides and then make your decisions in life. That is excellent.

Some others, on the other hand, have said that if we do not share their beliefs, we are going to hell. They've said that we are immoral if we don't share their beliefs on homosexuality, on a woman's right to choose, on even whether the Bible is in fact the unedited word of God.[end]

I will readily admit that I am one who believes that if you do not share the belief that Jesus is the Savior that God gave mankind to redeem them from their sins, which seperates them from Him, you will ,yourself, be seperated from him for all eternity. God, because he is sinless, can NOT dwell or live with any sin (which is a wrong doing of any kind). He must divide those who have sin in their lives from those who don't once they no longer have a physical body. (at death) Those who put their hope and faith in Jesus, who took the punishment we should have gotten for our sins, will be seen as sinless, or just as if we never sinned. This is called justification. Because we have believed, we will be justified.

It's kind of like court. God is the judge, man is the defendant and Jesus is the attorney. The attorney tells the judge that he will pay the penalty for this man's wrong doing. The judge demands justice and accepts the attorneys price. The man is allowed to go free, for justice has been served. Each person who accepts Jesus' free gift of "freedom", which is eternal life in Heaven, will be seen by the Father as sinless forever when he dies, and willl be allowed to be in God's presence. Those with sin still upon them will be seperated from God in a place he named Hell. Like the rich man in the parable Jesus gave in Luke 16, every sinner in Hell has a full realization that he deserves to be there. His conscience becomes his own tormenter. This is the experience of 'torture' that people speak of about Hell. If you knew there was a better place that was full of love and peace, and you chose to ignore God throughout your life time and refuse Jesus' free gift, that would be torturous to any soul.

Just thought I'd mention that I never went to Sunday school either. I found God when I was 25 years old. So there goes that "indoctrinated" theory.

You've often declared that without the Bible and a belief in God, man would have no moral compass. Here's a link (I know, I usually do not post links, but this one is some alternative reading for you to consider.)

Josephson Institute of Ethics: The Six Pillars of Character: Trustworthiness, Respect, Responsibility, Fairness, Caring, Citizenship

Maybe you never went to Sunday School but I am very surprised that you never went to church before the age of 25. That's very interesting, patty.

Maybe you never went to Sunday School but I am very surprised that you never went to church before the age of 25. That's very interesting, patty.

my mom sent us occasionally to catechism when I was a child, cause she was catholic, but we were not taught anything about that faith at our home. When I say occasionally, I can remember going one school year on wednesdays after school for an hour. That's about it. I went to church 3 or 4 times as a child, cause my mom sent us with my older sister to get us out of the house so she could relax. Other than that, I never went to any church. I got married in the catholic church because that's the church my mom claimed as hers. I baptised my first 2 sons there also. (when you are a catholic christian, most of them that I knew, only used the church to do what they needed to do.)

Seems to me that others, like you, may be closed minded to the possibility that people, like patty, might be right.

sam, most people who have beliefs which are alternate to traditional Christian ones have given much thought to their spiritual journey and have thoroughly explored Christianity as well. One of the hallmarks of the spiritual process is the realization that there are less "absolutes" as I said before. See patty's quote below:

There is only one way to your Cretaor. Someone has to be right. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life, and no man comes to the Father but through me." You can't read that any differently. He also said He is the ONLY way, so what else are we to do? It is good to be 'rigid' when you have the right answer.

This is pretty absolute.

I agree with BJean that we're kind of hardwired for spiritual growth. And I believe that everyone, including patty, worships or expresses faith in their own way according to their own needs. When you say that people like BJean and me might be closed minded to the possibility that patty might be right, you can be sure that I (and I would imagine BJean) would certainly have examined the possibility that her form of Christianity is the one and only way.

However, I can read the words of Jesus and have a whole different understanding of those words than she does.

I believe the problem with fundamentalism is their belief that they're right and everybody else is wrong. You see this with fundamentalist Muslims as well as Christians and I would imagine extreme factions in other religions as well. They ALL believe they have the one true way. And the most disturbing thing is that they usually all want their respective countries or governments to run according to their fundamental beliefs.

Christians only see black and white, there is no in between. Either you believe in God or you're a sinner.

Other types of spirituality that I have heard about are not nearly as rigid, and therefore, in my opinion, not close-minded at all. Christianity really is a straight and narrow path, and I have heard many of them refer to it as such.

Debbie

I was raised to be Christian and went to church often as a child. As an adult, I still consider myself to be christian.

I do not see it as black and white like that at all. I am not rigid about it at all. I am pro-choice all the way. I do not quote the bible like Patty does, but do have a great deal of respect for Patty.

That being said, I had a family emergency on Tuesday and you bet I was praying to GOD through Jesus to help with this emergency. When the emergency got better, I said a prayer of thanks too. Of course I do not know if my prayers were truly the reason the emercency turned out better than it could have. But just in case, I said a prayer of thanks.

I grew up with the fire and brimstone kind of Christianity. Later I went to Mass with my best friend. I studied with Seventh-Day Adventists, talked to Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans and Episcopalians, who seem to me to be much milder. I've also dealt with born-again Christians. None of them have done anything which would lead me to believe in their God. Saying a prayer "just in case" seems to me to leave room for doubt. If you can't be sure that the prayers are what did the trick, that too, would cause me to question.

Butting my head against a brick wall, waiting for answers and then thinking that whatever happens is God's will is not the way I choose to live my life. It still seems rather black and white to me. .

Debbie

I say there is no way to know for certain and that it is relatively pointless to debate it. Either you believe or don't believe. Bravo for doing your best to make a neural god topic :eek:.

I don't try to make anyone else believe or become a christian. I just know what I believe and I do pray.

patty, first you say: "Just thought I'd mention that I never went to Sunday school either. I found God when I was 25 years old. So there goes that "indoctrinated" theory."

But I guess you were exaggerating because then you admitted:

"my mom sent us occasionally to catechism when I was a child, cause she was catholic, but we were not taught anything about that faith at our home. When I say occasionally, I can remember going one school year on wednesdays after school for an hour. That's about it. I went to church 3 or 4 times as a child, cause my mom sent us with my older sister to get us out of the house so she could relax. Other than that, I never went to any church. I got married in the catholic church because that's the church my mom claimed as hers. I baptised my first 2 sons there also. (when you are a catholic christian, most of them that I knew, only used the church to do what they needed to do.)

Going to catechism counts in the indoctrination process. I'm surprised you don't realize that.

In order for you to get married in the Catholic Church, you attended some sessions - they were called instructions - prior to your wedding, unless your Catholic church was completely out of the ordinary. That counts for something when one thinks of having been indoctrinated.

And as for your last little comment, your Catholic church must REALLY have been out of the ordinary. Because if your "Catholic Christian" friends simply "used the church to "do what they needed to do" it was unlike any Catholic Church I've ever attended. And I have attended Catholic Churches all over the United States.

By the way, what in the world is a Catholic Christian?