There was a story on the news about this, and I thought it would be an iteresting debate. I am undecided.

LOL some people will just never get it I guess.....

So back to topic.....

Night before last I had heard on the news that they did a crack down bust on this park in a small town just north of us, because there were people having sex in the bushes etc. They knew it was prostitutes etc. So they did this bust. It hit the news this morning, one of the "girls" arrested----was a city councelors wife! So now the whole dynamic of the story changed from them being worthless humans doing something horrid, to how many of them have problems and need help. I find it sad that if not for the one woman who was known---they would have been all made out to be horrible, when they are the exact same women, with or without her among them.

kartman: "It is why I feel so strong about equality now. I voraciously fight racism, bigotry and religious intolerance now because I think they are at the root of so many of society’s ills. If we could embrace our differences rather than alienate each other we would all be better for it."

It's this religious intolerance that seems to be polarizing so many Americans today.

I heard President Eisenhower's daughter speak the other night. One of the interesting things she talked about was the fact that she is no longer a Republican. It was quite obvious that she denounces the religious intolerance that so many of the extreme right wing of that party espouse. I also heard her speak to the fact that right now America is in really bad shape because we are so separated and polarized as a nation. I agree with her. It seems to be another Bush legacy.

Things that so many right wing extremists speak of regarding the Bible - for instance, the way they absolutely disrespect anyone who is gay because they thinks that's what God says to do - is unspeakably mean spirited and bigoted. It is not what God wants from us - to take away a gay person's rights, to disrespect them because of their sexual orientation - it is not! If one believes that God created us all, one must acknowledge that God made gays just the way they are. And he loves them as his children just as he loves all of his children here on earth.

The early bible writers decided that the best way to increase their flock was to 1) disallow birth control and 2) disallow gay partnerships. The fact that the right wing extremists have seized upon passages that men wrote and included in the Bible and use those words to discrminate against fellow human beings is dispicable. To call them God's words is just plain wrong.

And this is only ONE example of the bigotry and religious discrimination that we've read over and over here. There are more examples. And I, for one, am sick of patty saying it loud and clear in one post and then denying that she meant it that way in another. "Hate the sin and not the sinner." Sorry, I'm just not buying that B.S.

I say live and let live. Do not cast the first stone. He who is without sin, etc.

kartman: "It is why I feel so strong about equality now. I voraciously fight racism, bigotry and religious intolerance now because I think they are at the root of so many of society’s ills. If we could embrace our differences rather than alienate each other we would all be better for it."

It's this religious intolerance that seems to be polarizing so many Americans today.

I heard President Eisenhower's daughter speak the other night. One of the interesting things she talked about was the fact that she is no longer a Republican. It was quite obvious that she denounces the religious intolerance that so many of the extreme right wing of that party espouse. I also heard her speak to the fact that right now America is in really bad shape because we are so separated and polarized as a nation. I agree with her. It seems to be another Bush legacy.

Things that so many right wing extremists speak of regarding the Bible - for instance, the way they absolutely disrespect anyone who is gay because they thinks that's what God says to do - is unspeakably mean spirited and bigoted.

Christians don't disrespect people who are gay. They just don't agree with their choices. Many of my friends smoke cigarettes, and I don't disrespect them. I jjust don't agree with their choice to smoke. I'm not trying to take away their right to do as they please. They can smoke if they want. Same thing with the homosexuals out there. They can have sex with and live with anyone they want. I don't disrespect them. I just don't approve of their choice. There are alot of things that people do that christians (and even non christians) don't think are right. We don't disrespect anyone because of it. I'm sure there are things that we do that others don't like. BTW, we don't disrespect people because we think that's what God wants us to do. We disapprove of their choices because that's what God says is wrong. It is not mean spirited or bigoted (as much as you really want it to be) because it is never mean spirited or biggotted to not approve of sin. Am I a bigot and mean and hateful because I don't approve of my sister sleeping with my brother? Or how about not approving of my friends drug use? That makes me mean spirited? NO! We just don't approve of anything God deems sinful. I don't get it? What's wrong with wanting righteousness?

It is not what God wants from us - to take away a gay person's rights, to disrespect them because of their sexual orientation - it is not!

Everyone in this world can make a choice whether to have sex with someone or not. If you are feeling the urge to have sex with someone and that person is the same sex as you are, then it is a sin to do it. Period. Of course if you don't believe in God, you can do as you please. But, taking an institution that God created (marriage) and making it, by law, into something that he did not want, is not acceptable to me or any other christian that I know. If they choose to have a legally binding relationship with each other, then they may do it under another institution of their own. Not one that is already made for a man and a woman together.

If one believes that God created us all, one must acknowledge that God made gays just the way they are. And he loves them as his children just as he loves all of his children here on earth.

1/2 true. God does LOVE us all. But he made a man a man, and a woman a woman. The feelings and urges that we humans get for one another are what WE desire. Not what God desires. Just because you have an insde desire to do something, doesn't mean God made you that way. Also, we can only claim to be God's children if his son, Jesus, is our Savior. All who don't, are not his children, they are his creation. It isn't until you have asked him to Save you that He adopts you into his family.

The early bible writers decided that the best way to increase their flock was to 1) disallow birth control

It is not written anywhere in the bible that God says we can not use birth control. Since He says that abortion is the same as murder, we can only assume that those forms of birth control that kill a baby immediately after conception are not to be used, but others may. It is only the Catholic denomination that teaches that you can't use birth control, and history has shown with that denomination that they make their own policies and don't always go only by what is written in the bible.

and 2) disallow gay partnerships.

I have a copy of the original greek bible translated into english and the verses that speak about homosexuality do not differ from the newer versions of the bible today.

The fact that the right wing extremists have seized upon passages that men wrote and included in the Bible and use those words to discrminate against fellow human beings is dispicable. To call them God's words is just plain wrong.

What is plain wrong is your denial of God's word as truth. I think it is wonderful that you believe in God. It is a shame that you don't have him to talk to, though. Because without God's word in the bible, we would not know anything that he has to say to us. Oh yes, we could pray. But without God's word, you will have a one way conversation. You talk and he listens, but never being able to answer you back. What's a relationship with someone that is only one sided? God gave us the bible so that we could know him.

And this is only ONE example of the bigotry and religious discrimination that we've read over and over here. There are more examples. And I, for one, am sick of patty saying it loud and clear in one post and then denying that she meant it that way in another.

And just where did I do this?

"Hate the sin and not the sinner." Sorry, I'm just not buying that B.S.

So, in other words, everyone that hates wrongdoing hates the people who do wrong? Or is that just for Christians ? Just for christians? I thought so!

I say live and let live. Do not cast the first stone. He who is without sin, etc.

I don't believe that you can say "do not cast the first stone" or "He who is without sin..." because those are God's words from his bible which you have already stated that you don't believe he wrote. Why, bjean, do you pick and choose what to believe is God's words from the bible? "Do not cast the first stone " is 'good' advice from God in your opinion, and "homosexuality is an abomination unto me" is not good advice from God in your opinion. We can not decide for ourselves what to believe from the bible. We must take it all as his word or nothing at all.

..............................................................

I personally believe that many people DO CHOOSE homosexuality. I also believe with all my heart that others are born that way, and no amount of bible quoting etc. will alter that opinion.

My oldest DD's best friends youngest brother was obviously gay from the time he began walking and talking. He grew more and more flamboyant, and was wearing dresses in Kindergarden. He had NO idea of sexuality then----he was just being who he was, same as most kids. He is now out of high school has been open about his homosexuality since late junior high, and has never questioned it, no one around him EVER has. It was a huge issue with his redneck Daddy! But are you saying then God made a mistake? This boy made the choice, before he knew there was a choice to be made.

Last month we lost my niece. She was born special, both physically and mentally. My adult DD ask me, in all seriousness, about her. She said she had always been taught that when your soul goes to heaven all your earthly restraints are removed, and you are fully restored. She was concerned that that would mean my niece was not going to be "herself". We discussed that she was born that way, it was not through an accident following birth that she had her issues, so I believe God sent her to us the way she was. Always happy, always innocent. I believe when we meet again she will be as we knew her. She was not a mistake. Neither in my opinion are people who are born gay, nor is the man with no legs, or the blind or deaf. There are many different things one can be born with, and with those different abilities, or lack of them, you teach those around you. My DD's friends brother taught his entire family and those around him acceptance---everyone knew it was not a choice he made, it was how he was born....

The thing about original greek translations or any other kind, is unless you know the language, it can say that it translates to anything! None of us has ever read or seen THE original bible, or even one of THE original books in the bible, as it has not always been in one place as a book. So through the years, it is entirely possible things have been changed or omitted entirely. It is possible that entire chapters have been "made up".

I am not attacking belief, just saying that it is not as cut and dried in most peoples minds, and that does not make us less christianlike, that is not for you to decide for us. Doing so would be wrong in your way of believing.

It is beside the point. I know we will never agree, and I really do not care.

Excellent points, Kat. Well done.

Patty you claim you don't approve of smoking but you don't hold the person in low esteem because they smoke. And yet, you didn't approve of giving out free food to a smoker because if they have enough money to buy cigarettes, they can buy their own food.

You pick and choose from the Bible. You say you don't, but you obviously do.

And how pompous of you to say that I don't speak with God. It is your comments like these that reveal your true nature and the fact that you are judgmental and that you feel superior because of your beliefs. It is the tone of your writings and the claim that you know for a fact what God says that cause your arguments to fall flat.

What you espouse is religion. Even when you say you don't approve of organized religion, your kind of blind faith is all about religion - not sprirtuality or goodness or generosity of spirit toward others - which is what Jesus represents. You represent religion, preaching, condemnation, self-glorification and hell fire and brimstone. Your brand of religion gives you an out for all of the negativism that you feel toward others. You use the Bible for religious purposes not to expand your own goodness.

All of this is IMHO, of course and based on solely on your posts. You could be a black, Democratic, homosexual, abortion lover for all I know and just yanking everybody's chain. If that's the case, the only good that has come of our reading what you post is that it serves to solidify our own beliefs and the knowledge that we don't want to be a nutty right wing extremist. For that, I thank you. :thumbup:

Kat, even if you are born gay (which you're not, for every action taken is a choice we make), that wouldn't change the fact that God said to have sex with the same sex is wrong. So if you're 'born' that way, you are in for either a sexless lifestyle or settling to have sex with the opposite sex if you want to obey God. Some people are born with disablities and have to live with them. They accept the fact that they are blind or have a weight problem or have one arm, whatever. Therefore, whether you are 'Born' gay, or not matters little when it comes down to sinning against God or not. It's just another thing that God uses to show mankind his absolute NEED for a Savior.

Excellent points, Kat. Well done.

Patty you claim you don't approve of smoking but you don't hold the person in low esteem because they smoke. And yet, you didn't approve of giving out free food to a smoker because if they have enough money to buy cigarettes, they can buy their own food.

I wont enable people to continue in their wrong doing. That's the point I was trying to bring out when I said that I wouldn't give free food away to someone if I knew they made a choice to buy their cigarettes over groceries.

You pick and choose from the Bible. You say you don't, but you obviously do.

No. I don't.

And how pompous of you to say that I don't speak with God. It is your comments like these that reveal your true nature and the fact that you are judgmental and that you feel superior because of your beliefs. It is the tone of your writings and the claim that you know for a fact what God says that cause your arguments to fall flat.

I said that you DO speak with God, not that you DON"T. Reread what I wrote. What I said was that it's too bad you don't allow Him to talk back to you. For the only way to hear from God is through his words in the bible. If you don't believe them to be true, then it's a one sided conversation. I can claim that I know what God says, because I do. I have read the bible hundreds of times over and know it very well. You say it is a fact that I feel superior because of my beliefs. This is certainly not a fact. I don't feel superior. I just know that I am secure in my destiny, and this security brings me self confidence in what I say and it gives me peace about life. Everyone on the whole Earth has the same possibility.

What you espouse is religion. Even when you say you don't approve of organized religion, your kind of blind faith is all about religion - not sprirtuality or goodness or generosity of spirit toward others - which is what Jesus represents. You represent religion, preaching, condemnation, self-glorification and hell fire and brimstone. Your brand of religion gives you an out for all of the negativism that you feel toward others. You use the Bible for religious purposes not to expand your own goodness.

What I espouse is a relationship with Jesus, who is God. Did you know that Jesus spoke far, far more about Hell than Heaven? He wanted to be sure everyone knew of the consequences for their sinfulness. It was in his mercy, for their sakes, that he did this. All it takes is a recognition of sin in your life and an understanding that a day can't go by without you disobeying God in some way. This will lead people to ask Him for forgiveness and eternal life. He gladly gives it to all who ask. I have acknowledged that I am a sinner and need Jesus. I have asked him to be my Savior and that is why I can talk in confidence about what I say.

All of this is IMHO, of course and based on solely on your posts. You could be a black, Democratic, homosexual, abortion lover for all I know and just yanking everybody's chain. If that's the case, the only good that has come of our reading what you post is that it serves to solidify our own beliefs and the knowledge that we don't want to be a nutty right wing extremist. For that, I thank you.

I feel sorry for you. I hope you will reconsider what you said here.

:crying:

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Excellent points, Kat. Well done.

Patty you claim you don't approve of smoking but you don't hold the person in low esteem because they smoke. And yet, you didn't approve of giving out free food to a smoker because if they have enough money to buy cigarettes, they can buy their own food.

You pick and choose from the Bible. You say you don't, but you obviously do.

And how pompous of you to say that I don't speak with God. It is your comments like these that reveal your true nature and the fact that you are judgmental and that you feel superior because of your beliefs. It is the tone of your writings and the claim that you know for a fact what God says that cause your arguments to fall flat.

What you espouse is religion. Even when you say you don't approve of organized religion, your kind of blind faith is all about religion - not sprirtuality or goodness or generosity of spirit toward others - which is what Jesus represents. You represent religion, preaching, condemnation, self-glorification and hell fire and brimstone. Your brand of religion gives you an out for all of the negativism that you feel toward others. You use the Bible for religious purposes not to expand your own goodness.

All of this is IMHO, of course and based on solely on your posts. You could be a black, Democratic, homosexual, abortion lover for all I know and just yanking everybody's chain. If that's the case, the only good that has come of our reading what you post is that it serves to solidify our own beliefs and the knowledge that we don't want to be a nutty right wing extremist. For that, I thank you. :smile2:

I think this says it well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWqgD7lGneU

I personally believe that many people DO CHOOSE homosexuality. I also believe with all my heart that others are born that way, and no amount of bible quoting etc. will alter that opinion.

I agree 100%. I have known people that have made a choice to be homosexual after very damaging relationships earlier in life. I also know people that definitely seem to have been born that way because the inclination showed itself in early childhood.

How can you fight your basic nature and inclinations? It can be done but not without great personal sacrifice and unhappiness. Some of the people I know who seem to have been "born" homosexual are the most generous and caring individuals that I have had the pleasure of knowing. I really can't see a good person with a good heart being automatically condemned for the sin of being born different.

Thanks, Kat. I agree absolutely with everything you have said on this thread and I enjoy reading your posts immensely. I think we are of like mind on these topics.

Heather: "I really can't see a good person with a good heart being automatically condemned for the sin of being born different."

Don't you get it? We're ALL condemned. There is NONE without sin. The homosexual who acts on his desires, the obese person who overeats, the thief, the murderer, the one who has a dirty thought, and the list goes on and on. So, you can't see a good person with a good heart being condemned? Well, every person good or bad is condemned already, the scripture teaches. The only way to be UNcondemned is to put your faith in the one God sent to do it for us. Jesus.

Wonder why this above post come to me in my email sent out to me as opposed to Heather, but yet shows no editing??????

Heather I agree with you completly. I personally do not care to hear any more from you personally Patty as to what YOUR beliefs are or what YOUR interpretations of scripture are. This post is NOT directed at you or asking you for response to this.

I am simply stating, that

I CHOOSE to believe and worship a loving and forgiving God.

I do not care whether you agree with my beliefs or not.

I do not want to "discuss" it with you any more.

And oh yeah....I STILL believe prostitution should be legalized!

Don't you get it? We're ALL condemned. There is NONE without sin. The homosexual who acts on his desires, the obese person who overeats, the thief, the murderer, the one who has a dirty thought, and the list goes on and on. So, you can't see a good person with a good heart being condemned?

Uh.....I guess we're all really screwed, then.

HH

Uh.....I guess we're all really screwed, then.

HH

FINALLY the sermons are over and we are back to the original topic....aren't we? Screwed??? Prostitutes???

Yeah Original Topic back in the room!

FINALLY the sermons are over and we are back to the original topic....aren't we? Screwed??? Prostitutes???

Yeah Original Topic back in the room!

Amen!

and Hallelujah!

Prostitution is back in the house!! :thumbup:

HH

off religion and back to prostitution. i see nothing wrong with legalized prostitution. isnt it referred to as the worlds oldest profession? the bottom line is people use sex to get what they want and are gonna cont to. whether its trading sex for money to pay the rent or having sex with your husband cuz you're trying to get him to take you on vacation. its still trading sex for something you want or need. anyone who says they've never had sex with an ulterior motive involved is either lieing or has no sex life. besides why should prostitution be th only "profession" not paying taxes