There was a story on the news about this, and I thought it would be an iteresting debate. I am undecided.

Uh huh, and that just makes the argument even more compelling. You Christians can’t even agree amongst yourselves what is and isn’t supposed to be in the Bible:rolleyes:

Not true. The Catholic church is the church that ruled over in England before we came here to America to get away from that rule. It was so named the dark ages because of that particular church keeping christians in the dark about what was actually in the bible. The bible was actually read in its entirety by some people there and when word got out that the Catholic church was teaching so many unscriptural things as biblical truths, the protestants, so named for their protesting of the Catholic church's dogma, turned strongly against the catholic church leaders and demanded the bible for themselves to read.

In christianity, no one claims to be perfect (except maybe the pope:rolleyes:), but perfection isn't the goal. Heaven is. If some denominations disagree on things, it is okay. Man has never been known to be able to see eye to eye on all things. Just look at our government. There is only one issue that christian denominations can not differ on in any way, and that is that Jesus is the way to get eternal life. If they differ on that issue, then they need to not be called 'christian'.

Maybe it’s just me, but I find this whole passage and the history behind it to be a tad elitist. Did the “true” religion that we brought the Indians make their lives any better? It doesn’t seem so. Most of them were killed off or evicted from their ancestral homes. I’m still trying to wrap my head around why on the one hand God blessed us (by us, I mean the Anglo European pilgrims and their descendants) with this wonderful country and in the same stroke cursed the Indians.

Yes, christianity made their lives better. If they died off, and we all will, they are in Heaven now instead of Hell. The one thing that unbelievers do alot is think in the realm of this life only. Believers in God always think in the realm of eternity, and make their decisions in life not just on what will happen here on earth, but also in heaven. Believers understand that life is everlasting. Who says the indians were cursed by God? They had every bit of opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior as the rest of the world. And if they did,they will now be enjoying their decision in the after life. Sounds like a blessing to me.

Not true. The Catholic church is the church that ruled over in England before we came here to America to get away from that rule. It was so named the dark ages because of that particular church keeping christians in the dark about what was actually in the bible. The bible was actually read in its entirety by some people there and when word got out that the Catholic church was teaching so many unscriptural things as biblical truths, the protestants, so named for their protesting of the Catholic church's dogma, turned strongly against the catholic church leaders and demanded the bible for themselves to read.

In christianity, no one claims to be perfect (except maybe the pope:rolleyes:), but perfection isn't the goal. Heaven is. If some denominations disagree on things, it is okay. Man has never been known to be able to see eye to eye on all things. Just look at our government. There is only one issue that christian denominations can not differ on in any way, and that is that Jesus is the way to get eternal life. If they differ on that issue, then they need to not be called 'christian'.

Well, not exactly. The Church of England was the religious power in England at the time (and still is). The Church of England has many things in common with the Catholic Church but it is a distinctly different offshoot.

Yes, christianity made their lives better. If they died off, and we all will, they are in Heaven now instead of Hell. The one thing that unbelievers do alot is think in the realm of this life only. Believers in God always think in the realm of eternity, and make their decisions in life not just on what will happen here on earth, but also in heaven. Believers understand that life is everlasting. Who says the indians were cursed by God? They had every bit of opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior as the rest of the world. And if they did,they will now be enjoying their decision in the after life. Sounds like a blessing to me.

Are you serious Patty? I’m going to do something I don’t do often, and talk about the ¼ of me that is Indian. It’s not that I am in any way ashamed of that part of me, it’s just that I don’t know much about that part of my bloodline. My father was half Indian (my mother never knew what tribe), but I didn’t know him – so I don’t know that side very well. But I digress, the point I’m trying to make is that I don’t think you can say that Christianity or any thing else the Europeans brought to them made their lives better. We (the Europeans) completely decimated whole cultures, killed thousands (millions?), and uprooted almost every single tribe on this continent. “Giving” them religion is hardly payback for all of that.

I’m not one of those that believes that we should leave or give the land back, the past is well behind us. But to sit here and pretend that we did a good thing for the Indians with all of those injustices is lunacy and insulting. Sometimes the things you say are truly disturbing.

Are you serious Patty? I’m going to do something I don’t do often, and talk about the ¼ of me that is Indian. It’s not that I am in any way ashamed of that part of me, it’s just that I don’t know much about that part of my bloodline. My father was half Indian (my mother never knew what tribe), but I didn’t know him – so I don’t know that side very well. But I digress, the point I’m trying to make is that I don’t think you can say that Christianity or any thing else the Europeans brought to them made their lives better. We (the Europeans) completely decimated whole cultures, killed thousands (millions?), and uprooted almost every single tribe on this continent. “Giving” them religion is hardly payback for all of that.

I’m not one of those that believes that we should leave or give the land back, the past is well behind us. But to sit here and pretend that we did a good thing for the Indians with all of those injustices is lunacy and insulting. Sometimes the things you say are truly disturbing.

Sorry for the misunderstanding here. I certainly didn't mean to say that they were not mistreated. They were in many ways. I'm saying that they were brought the word of God and because of that, they were blessed by Him.

So even though they too(speaking of Native American Indians here) were created by God, without us, they never would have known that? Would they have been punished by being sentenced to hell for not knowing God as we present him?

Are infants and small children who do not know the God YOU believe in, punished as well?

Back to the Native American aspect-------I live in New Mexico, in a border town to one of the largest Indian reservations....commonly referred to as the Rez. Prejudice runs rampant in both directions. There are those in all races that hate the others simply because they were born of a different race....like we all had a choice what we were born as! There are times I hate where I live, because of this. Most times I love the diversity.

Within the Navajo people, there is a wide variety of beliefs, and different religions followed. There is a STRONG Mormon following among the Navajos. Patty, you have yet to elaborate on the book of Morman.

In an earlier post, you stated that if we all lived by the Bible we would be in Utopia. While most of us disagree, with it being a Biblical thing, we all can agree on the premise of treating one another the way you want to be treated would make the world a better place. The Native Americans I live around, had their own beliefs, and they try to tell us about them---of their worship of the land, and living in harmony with one another, and the land. I do not understand how God is going to punish them for living in this manner. There were many Indians who lived and died before we come to America with our beliefs---did those that died before knowing to pray for salvation, automatically go to hell?

I have nephews who are both half Navajo---and while one would think that as time goes by things would improve, it is not so! They are rejected by the tribe because of their white blood. It has not been a real issue until they have become older, and now both want to leave the area. To date is an issue with them! Navajo families do not want their daughters dating them because they have a white mother. Yet to look at them, one would never know that, so when one of them shows up to pick up a date.....the white girls family is not approving either! The oldest one, is dating a girl who is the same mix he is!

I have learned so much about customs and beliefs from them, and the things they bring home from the Navajo family. Their Great Grandma, is classic---she speaks very little English, she wears traditional clothing, and is sweet as the day is long.....and she LOVES to tell you about tradition, and tries to teach her ways to the boys. Is God going to punish them for listening, and perhaps agreeing or believing in the ancient teachings of their people???

These things make no sense to me.....I cannot see it cut and dried like you do Patty and it upsets me to think that the God you and others like you want me to follow would be like you portray him.

I hope you are wrong......

I believe in God, don't get me wrong, I do not believe in a vengeful God, but a forgiving one. The relationship we have is OURS----not for YOU to decide. YOU---and not even the book we are currently discussing can tell me whether I get into heaven----that is between me and God...nothing else. THAT is my belief. Now you may THINK I am going to hell with that belief, but thankfully YOU don't get to make that decision, and the things you quote and pull from articles are no more than your or some other authors opinions, of no more value to anyone than mine.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and find out there is not, than to live as if there is not, and find out there is......as they say.

So even though they too(speaking of Native American Indians here) were created by God, without us, they never would have known that? Would they have been punished by being sentenced to hell for not knowing God as we present him?

It says in the scripture that all men are without excuse because Gid has given them 'nature' and the 'things which have been made' to see and know that there is a creator. Anyone can look at creation itself and know that there was a creator of it all. God understands and knows the heart of everyone that he created.

Are infants and small children who do not know the God YOU believe in, punished as well?

No, not at all. Infants and children are saved and if they die before they reach the age of accountability (and only God knows what that age is in every human) they will go straight to be with the Lord. God has determined for each individual a set time (or age) when they will be accountable to him for the decisions that they make. Just like in America we say that age is 18. God also determines at what point in each individuals life that he should know better and is now capable of making a decision as to whether to reject Him or not. The mentally challenged for example, may never reach that age of accountability before him. But at some point in each persons life, they are able to make a choice for him or against him.

Back to the Native American aspect-------I live in New Mexico, in a border town to one of the largest Indian reservations....commonly referred to as the Rez. Prejudice runs rampant in both directions. There are those in all races that hate the others simply because they were born of a different race....like we all had a choice what we were born as! There are times I hate where I live, because of this. Most times I love the diversity.

Within the Navajo people, there is a wide variety of beliefs, and different religions followed. There is a STRONG Mormon following among the Navajos. Patty, you have yet to elaborate on the book of Morman.

The bible tells us to not add to or take away from the bible. The book of Morman is an 'addition' to the bible. Therefore, I reject it as truth. The Morman church does believe in Jesus as the Savior and they believe the bible is God's word. This is good. I believe there may be many from that denomination who will enter into God's kingdom because of their faith in Jesus. I also believe that they will be disciplined for their false teachings on the judgement day. (as will many other christian denominations)

In an earlier post, you stated that if we all lived by the Bible we would be in Utopia. While most of us disagree, with it being a Biblical thing, we all can agree on the premise of treating one another the way you want to be treated would make the world a better place. The Native Americans I live around, had their own beliefs, and they try to tell us about them---of their worship of the land, and living in harmony with one another, and the land. I do not understand how God is going to punish them for living in this manner. There were many Indians who lived and died before we come to America with our beliefs---did those that died before knowing to pray for salvation, automatically go to hell?

Only God knows the heart of each man, not me. All I know is that there are only 2 destinations after we die. One is a place called Heaven and the other called Hell. One is with God, our creator, and the other is without God and with all those who chose in this life to not embrace him or his love for them. Praying for salvation is not so much required as having love and a heart for the one who made you, even if you didn't know his name. Every person at some point in his life thinks about "what's life all about?" and "why am I here?". God knows what each person thinks and ponders upon. All that's needed is God's recognition of your acknowledgement of him. The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus simply said,"remember me when you enter into your Kingdom" And what was Jesus' reply? "This day you shall surely be with me in Paradise." Try to remember that our destination upon our death day is not determined by our good or bad deeds, but by our faith in God as our Savior. The deeds we have done while we lived on earth will be rewarded or disciplined either here and now, or in eternity on the judgment day that God has set for each person to attend.

I have nephews who are both half Navajo---and while one would think that as time goes by things would improve, it is not so! They are rejected by the tribe because of their white blood. It has not been a real issue until they have become older, and now both want to leave the area. To date is an issue with them! Navajo families do not want their daughters dating them because they have a white mother. Yet to look at them, one would never know that, so when one of them shows up to pick up a date.....the white girls family is not approving either! The oldest one, is dating a girl who is the same mix he is!

I have learned so much about customs and beliefs from them, and the things they bring home from the Navajo family. Their Great Grandma, is classic---she speaks very little English, she wears traditional clothing, and is sweet as the day is long.....and she LOVES to tell you about tradition, and tries to teach her ways to the boys. Is God going to punish them for listening, and perhaps agreeing or believing in the ancient teachings of their people???

That depends on what their teachings were. If they choose to reject Jesus as theSavior, then they will not enter into Heaven according to the bible.(2Thessalonians 1:8)

Do they believe that God created them? If so, He will adopt them into his family, and they can live with him in Heaven. If not, they will have to live outside of God's presence with all the other unbelievers in a place called Hell. If you feel that this is a hard thing to accept, that a loving God would separate those who love him from those who don't throughout all eternity, then you need to speak with him about it. He is just. Would you allow other people besides your own children to live with you in your home even if they didn't ever want anything to do with you or even believed that you existed? (Idon't believe that Hell fire is literal fire. Since our bodies have turned back to dust at death, we will have a spiritual body that flames can not harm. It is symbolic of how terrible it will be to live separated from the love of God.)

These things make no sense to me.....I cannot see it cut and dried like you do Patty and it upsets me to think that the God you and others like you want me to follow would be like you portray him.

I speak openly and honestly about what the bible says about God. I haven't portrayed Him in a bad light. He is a loving, caring, generous, merciful and giving Father who loves mankind so much that he would give his ONLY son as a sacrifice for us so that he could justly allow us into his presence one day at the time of our deaths on this earth. Who could love you more than that? Is there anyone on earth that you would give the life of your own child in exchange for? It says in the bible that He doesn't desire that any man would perish. He is constantly drawing mankind to himself so that they will think about him and accept his free gift of an eternal home with him.

I hope you are wrong......

I believe in God, don't get me wrong, I do not believe in a vengeful God, but a forgiving one.

I, too, believe that God is forgiving. But, not unless we ask him to. Do you really think that all the people who do wrong in this life are deserving of unconditional forgiveness? Meaning if they are not truly sorry for their wrong doings, they get a free pass? God is forgiving, but he's also just. If anyone asks him for forgiveness, he will absolutely give it.

The relationship we have is OURS----not for YOU to decide. YOU---and not even the book we are currently discussing can tell me whether I get into heaven----that is between me and God...nothing else.

I am not telling you whether you will get into heaven or not. Only you and God know that answer. I am only telling what I have read in God's word. If you don't believe me, then read it for yourself. If you don't believe the book to be truthful, that, too, is your decision and right.

THAT is my belief. Now you may THINK I am going to hell with that belief,

What belief? I'm sorry, but I don't think you made it very clear as to what your belief is. You did say that you believe in God. That's great. So do I. Other than that, you haven't stated.

but thankfully YOU don't get to make that decision,

Whether you believe me or not, I wouldn't want to make that decision for anyone!

and the things you quote and pull from articles are no more than your or some other authors opinions, of no more value to anyone than mine.

like what?

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and find out there is not, than to live as if there is not, and find out there is......as they say.

me too.

............................................................

Edited July 23, 200917 yr by pattygreen

Sad to say I would rather go to work than deal with this nonsense all day!!!!

Patty, think what you want, and do your best to defend what you think you do or don't say. Just think about this.

There are many of us on this board who see you say (type) things and insinuate things, are we ALL seeing the wrong thing come from you?

Where are the droves supporting the same things you say? All of us on one thing or another agree with you and with others, but you insist YOU are right.....and I simply choose to disagree....and gladly head off to work.

Sad to say I would rather go to work than deal with this nonsense all day!!!!

Patty, think what you want, and do your best to defend what you think you do or don't say. Just think about this.

There are many of us on this board who see you say (type) things and insinuate things, are we ALL seeing the wrong thing come from you?

Where are the droves supporting the same things you say? All of us on one thing or another agree with you and with others, but you insist YOU are right.....and I simply choose to disagree....and gladly head off to work.

All I can say (type) to that is another scripture, a quote from Jesus: "Enter through the narrow gate, For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13,14)

So even though they too(speaking of Native American Indians here) were created by God, without us, they never would have known that? Would they have been punished by being sentenced to hell for not knowing God as we present him?

Are infants and small children who do not know the God YOU believe in, punished as well?

Back to the Native American aspect-------I live in New Mexico, in a border town to one of the largest Indian reservations....commonly referred to as the Rez. Prejudice runs rampant in both directions. There are those in all races that hate the others simply because they were born of a different race....like we all had a choice what we were born as! There are times I hate where I live, because of this. Most times I love the diversity.

Within the Navajo people, there is a wide variety of beliefs, and different religions followed. There is a STRONG Mormon following among the Navajos. Patty, you have yet to elaborate on the book of Morman.

In an earlier post, you stated that if we all lived by the Bible we would be in Utopia. While most of us disagree, with it being a Biblical thing, we all can agree on the premise of treating one another the way you want to be treated would make the world a better place. The Native Americans I live around, had their own beliefs, and they try to tell us about them---of their worship of the land, and living in harmony with one another, and the land. I do not understand how God is going to punish them for living in this manner. There were many Indians who lived and died before we come to America with our beliefs---did those that died before knowing to pray for salvation, automatically go to hell?

I have nephews who are both half Navajo---and while one would think that as time goes by things would improve, it is not so! They are rejected by the tribe because of their white blood. It has not been a real issue until they have become older, and now both want to leave the area. To date is an issue with them! Navajo families do not want their daughters dating them because they have a white mother. Yet to look at them, one would never know that, so when one of them shows up to pick up a date.....the white girls family is not approving either! The oldest one, is dating a girl who is the same mix he is!

I have learned so much about customs and beliefs from them, and the things they bring home from the Navajo family. Their Great Grandma, is classic---she speaks very little English, she wears traditional clothing, and is sweet as the day is long.....and she LOVES to tell you about tradition, and tries to teach her ways to the boys. Is God going to punish them for listening, and perhaps agreeing or believing in the ancient teachings of their people???

These things make no sense to me.....I cannot see it cut and dried like you do Patty and it upsets me to think that the God you and others like you want me to follow would be like you portray him.

I hope you are wrong......

I believe in God, don't get me wrong, I do not believe in a vengeful God, but a forgiving one. The relationship we have is OURS----not for YOU to decide. YOU---and not even the book we are currently discussing can tell me whether I get into heaven----that is between me and God...nothing else. THAT is my belief. Now you may THINK I am going to hell with that belief, but thankfully YOU don't get to make that decision, and the things you quote and pull from articles are no more than your or some other authors opinions, of no more value to anyone than mine.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and find out there is not, than to live as if there is not, and find out there is......as they say.

Kat

My hat is off to you. What a powerful and insightful post.

I hope your nephews can find the peace that they deserve, it is sad they may have to leave home to do that. I had a similar experience as a child. I grew up very poor in a predominantly Black and Mexican neighborhood. I saw the ugliness of racism from the other direction. I was teased, picked on, and beat up by the Blacks and Mexicans because I was White. There were some White kids (from the better part of town) bussed in and I was ostracized by them too because of where I was from. Being the subject of this racism helped shaped who I am today. It was a difficult childhood, but one that I would not change for an instant. I learned that given the right scenario, any majority can and often does take advantage of the minority. It is why I feel so strong about equality now. I voraciously fight racism, bigotry and religious intolerance now because I think they are at the root of so many of society’s ills. If we could embrace our differences rather than alienate each other we would all be better for it.

Again, thank you for your post – it really touched me.

Thanks Kartman.

I dearly love my nephews, and I know with their insight into the problems they faced, they will make a difference in this world! My oldest nephew is on his way to becoming a pediatrician. The younger who has yet to graduate high school (this next year!) is undecided---his artistic ability is phenomenal tho!

Patty with all due respect, you have no idea of what gate I am headed for------I truly believe the same can be said of you. While you claim to not be judging each of us, you leave each of us who have claimed it, feeling judged by you and found to be less worthy than yourself, and that is not a Christian attitude, in any way shape or fashion. And yes, I fully realize by stating that, I am putting myself in the same position, the difference is I recognize it. It is one thing to claim to be a sinner, and another to want to change that status.

I believe if I can be loving, supportive, and kind to people and show them how much better their lives can be through a relationship with the Lord it is a much more positive and likely way to lead them to their own relationship with him, than to threaten them with entering the wrong gate and landing in hell.

But it takes all kinds, and maybe your ways will work for some, they would not work for me.

Within the Navajo people, there is a wide variety of beliefs, and different religions followed. There is a STRONG Mormon following among the Navajos. Patty, you have yet to elaborate on the book of Morman.

You know, it is interesting to note that a fundamental component of the Mormon Theology is that the Native Americans are the nearly direct decendants of Hebrews who relocated here from Israel. I'm supposing that's why there are so many LDS converts amongst the native Americans.....

Kat

My hat is off to you. What a powerful and insightful post.

I voraciously fight racism, bigotry and religious intolerance now because I think they are at the root of so many of society’s ills. If we could embrace our differences rather than alienate each other we would all be better for it.

Go KartMan! So very, very true!!

TPG

HH, I did not want to branch off in a whole different direction, but you are right. There is a place near here, a town now called Shiprock. There is a huge ragged rock the town was built around, and the ancients believe that it once sailed and brought some of their people to the area. Honestly I do not know the exact story---the language gets so mixed, and they have no words to translate it completely to where us non natives understand. But it does all tie in, and several of the Morman churches on the reservation hold it in high enough regard to have times to clean the area, and hold celebrations --- and it is held highly sacred by the tribe, we are not talking chidrens birthday parties!!

I don't find it lessens my beliefs to listen to, understand and support the Navajos in theirs. Or any other person or belief, it does not mean I am a follower myself!

The Dr. I work for is Nigerian, and he has blended the faith he was raised with, with what he has developed over the years here in America. Seldom have I ever come across anyone with a stronger faith in action tho. He lives his life helping others. He works 6 days a week, he ministers to the local jails, he gives services away literally every day I work, to those who would otherwise do without. His beliefs may not align themselves with mine 100%---but he LIVES in what I consider a Christian way---who am I to judge whether his beliefs or mine are "right"??

Thanks Kartman.

I dearly love my nephews, and I know with their insight into the problems they faced, they will make a difference in this world! My oldest nephew is on his way to becoming a pediatrician. The younger who has yet to graduate high school (this next year!) is undecided---his artistic ability is phenomenal tho!

Patty with all due respect, you have no idea of what gate I am headed for------I truly believe the same can be said of you. While you claim to not be judging each of us, you leave each of us who have claimed it, feeling judged by you and found to be less worthy than yourself, and that is not a Christian attitude, in any way shape or fashion. And yes, I fully realize by stating that, I am putting myself in the same position, the difference is I recognize it. It is one thing to claim to be a sinner, and another to want to change that status.

I believe if I can be loving, supportive, and kind to people and show them how much better their lives can be through a relationship with the Lord it is a much more positive and likely way to lead them to their own relationship with him, than to threaten them with entering the wrong gate and landing in hell.

But it takes all kinds, and maybe your ways will work for some, they would not work for me.

With all due respect to you, Kat, I want to state that I am sick and tired of being accused of saying things I have never said! I have ALWAYS affirmed that I am not the one to tell you where your soul will end up. I have NEVER told anyone including YOU that they were going to Hell. I NEVER said what "gate' you are heading for. You must have 'assumed' it was the wide gate over the narrow one, cause I never said that. You don't have any right to tell me what kind of attitude I have, for you are not me! If you are feeling judged by me and thus feel less worthy than me, that is your own doing unto yourself. I have never boasted of being on a higher plain than anyone, so please don't put words or your own assumptions on me.

Do you think that my telling others the truth about eternal life is a "threat" to people? I see it differently. I see it as opening eyes to the dangers of the afterlife when you don't know Jesus as your Savior. It's a life without your maker in it. Forever sorrowful. Isn't it better to be warned of it prior? I think that it is better to do both. You should be loving and kind to people as well as being truthful about what God has to say. When you talk to your children about the wrongs they do, you don't just 'love' them into doing the right thing, you also 'warn' them of the consequences when they don't do right. As a believer in Christ, I do both. I love people and I tell them straight up about what God has to say. Too many christians are afraid to speak the truth concerning what God says about eternal life for fear of people telling them they are judgmental or saying they are hateful for the words they speak about God. This couldn't be farther from the truth. The fact is that it is because christians LOVE others sooooo much that we share what God has to say about issues. When people contemplate their own sinfulness, they then begin to recognize their need for a Savior. Without that uncomfortableness that comes along with thinking about maybe having to go to Hell and being without God forever, people will never come to Christ. It's a price that christians have to pay for sharing the gospel. Even Jesus talks about it. It's a price I'm willing to bare. So, with all due respect, I am not judging you or anyone who reads this.

I am a very loving, kind and supportive person, and if you were able to meet me in person, you would think so as well. Others in my life say that I am very compassionate and loving and giving of myself. I am telling you this because what you hear of me here on LBT is mostly in the rants and raves area where we discuss very controversial issues. These issues concern right and wrong life choices.So the topic of sin and the consequences of it will come up with me.

One last thing. Kat said: Patty with all due respect, you have no idea of what gate I am headed for------I truly believe the same can be said of you. I just want to tell you that I am certain of my destination and what gate I will enter through when my life is over. God gives all believers this peace of mind. You can have it, too.:cool2: