holy hell **Confrontation or Enabling ?**

[summerset 5,261]

@@Elle09We are human we make mistakes. Its ok to make mistakes. None of us have been perfect in this process right?????

And yet some users on here behave like they were always 100% compliant and that everyone who isn't 100% all the time deserves to fail.

I'm quite appalled that I had to read multiple times from different users something like the following:

"Oh, they're eating pizza/steak/bacon/whatever - let's watch them fail, they deserve it".

There are at least three things that rub me the wrong way about this:

- the self-righteousness of the user who made the post

- the opinion that the patient who isn't always 100% compliant seems to deserve to fail 100%

- that some users would obviously really display schadenfreude when watching someone fail who eats foods that are not on their own personal list of approved foods

I understand the need to feel superior some times, but some statements just make me shake my head in kind of disbelief.

[Steven1954 89]

I have found tons of useful info here. I ignore rediculas comments.

[LipstickLady 25,682]

I'm quite appalled that I had to read multiple times from different users something like the following:

"Oh, they're eating pizza/steak/bacon/whatever - let's watch them fail, they deserve it".

In turn, I'm quite appalled that I have had to read multiple times from different users something like the following:

"Oh, they're eating pizza/steak/bacon/whatever three days post op/one week post op/during puréed/whenever. They lived/they're fine/KUDOS!/they deserved the treat/etc.".

No, not everyone is perfect, but no, not everyone "cheats" (hate that word).

Does any *deserve* to fail? Heck no!

Does everyone deserve exactly the results they achieve by the choices they make? Hell yeah! One bag of popcorn, one piece of bacon, one 20oz steak two weeks post op (remember that one?) won't "undo" a sleeve or a bypass or a band.

Giving those choices positive reinforcement, however, only encourages future poor choices not only to the offender but to people who are lurking, researching, and struggling to stay on plan. What a disservice this is to the greater WLS community.

And to what risk? At best -- recurring cravings, failure to maximize weight loss. At worst, a rupture or a leak.

(You know, that surgeon who regrets doing surgery on a non-compliant patient has the right to be pissed. If you spring a leak because you ate off plan, his/her medical license/reputation/surgical stats are at risk, not to mention medical malpractice investigation and insurance nightmares.)

Best advice? Take what YOU need, leave the rest. Follow the vets/newbies you love, block the ones you despise. People communicate in 100s of different ways and not everyone is going to be "blessings and warm fuzzies". On the other hand, not everyone who is giving "tough love" is doing it to be mean or hateful or to be a "bully". It's tough LOVE, not tough HATE.

Only YOU choose how to interpret tone. I choose not to be offended when I am asking for real advice. I also choose to be offended when someone coddles me when I know I screwed up, so there's that.

(It's my opinion that the biggest problem is those who stalk profiles, or troll the boards looking to "back up" people where no "back up" is needed until they come along with a big fat spoon. )

[Wolfgirl78 266]

I have not seen anyone tell anyone else they deserve to fail. I have read that resorting back to your old habits, especially early post op, could lead to failure.

That being said, my new motto is :

Bacon/pizza/ Coke Zero/ steak for everyone, all the time, whenever you want!

I'm done with it all.

When will the vets forum be fixed?

Sent from my iPhone using the BariatricPal App

[VEGAN ME 117]

I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT ON

I'm going to lump myself into the vet category since I am over a year out and surpassed goal. I think one thing that has not been mentioned is that as vets is that it is not our place to save anyone. We should strive to comment dispassionately on things that are known to be wrong.

I'm here for me. If I help people along the way, mores the better. If someone is self destructive, let them fail. Let them be the example to the others that don't want to listen to reason, wisdom, and experience.

Yeah, I know. I'm the @sshole.

[LipstickLady 25,682]

That being said, my new motto is :

Bacon/pizza/ Coke Zero/ steak for everyone, all the time, whenever you want!

That's definitely been my motto around here lately!! Do what you want, get what you get. If it works for you -- AWESOME! If it doesn't, choose to change it or don't. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Oh, and you forgot the popcorn.

[4MRB4PHOTO 3,899]

That being said, my new motto is :

Bacon/pizza/ Coke Zero/ steak for everyone, all the time, whenever you want!

That's definitely been my motto around here lately!! Do what you want, get what you get. If it works for you -- AWESOME! If it doesn't, choose to change it or don't. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Oh, and you forgot the popcorn.

...and straws. We can not forget about the straws!

(Not that they are dangerous, but they make for an "interesting" read)

[VSGAnn2014 12,992]

OK, let's talk about concepts like "self righteousness," "compliance," "success," "failure," "consistency" and "perfection."

It's easier to feel self righteous when we narrow our eyes and start to engage in "black-and-white thinking," i.e., we start to consider that something is all bad or all good, all correct or all incorrect, 0% or 100%, or that the presence of a single attribute or a single act equates to the presence of scores of other attributes or acts.

At nearly two years post-op, the way I see life after WLS is that compliance isn't about being perfect. But there are enormous differences in the ways one can diverge from "100% compliance" and the possible ramifications of those divergences depending on HOW the patient diverged from their protocols and on WHEN (how long post-op) and FOR HOW LONG one engaged in those divergences.

I'm probably right in assuming that no one here has been "perfect" -- in the sense that immediately post-op we all have to work hard for several days or even several weeks to take in our required amounts of Water and Protein. I think our surgeons understand that. So "doing the best you can" means exactly that.

However, it's abundantly clear to me that some people try a helluva lot harder than others to be compliant with their surgeons' eating / drinking / exercise protocols -- not only in the early days but six months out, two years out, etc.

When you're five days post-op, eating bacon is in my opinion more dangerous than drinking only 50 ounces of Water instead of the surgeon's recommended 64 ounces. And eating bacon five days post-op isn't even close to the worst behavior I've heard. A friend told me about a patient who ate a Tijuana food truck Breakfast burrito the morning after surgery. I have read here of patients who went back to drinking alcohol the same week they had surgery and patients who didn't stop smoking either before or after surgery. Then there are the patients who argue that ice cream qualifies as pureed and soft foods.

Timing and degrees matter.

Some patients have a very hard time understanding and acting on the distinction between "cheating on a weight-loss diet" and "being highly compliant with surgeon's post-op recovery instructions." Others don't. I truly don't understand why some can't see this difference. But I know a lot of people never fully get it.

I've spent many, many hours on this board trying to clarify this distinction for pre-op and newly post-op posters. Most of the time I'm patient. And long-winded. But sometimes I get frustrated not only with those who immediately post-op do things that put their lives and health in danger, but also with those who provide "supportive" comments along the lines of, "It's OK, nobody's perfect." Very often these commenters haven't had surgery, any pre-op instructions or even attended an introductory lecture by a bariatric surgeon. Sometimes they have.

No WLS patient ever suffered from raising their compliance standards from "when it's not too hard" to "just do it!" Will any of us be 100% compliant? I doubt it. But I'd rather shoot for 100% compliance and hit 95% than aim for 80% and hit 60%. In fact, 95% even makes me feel a little ... wait for it ... self righteous.

[AvaFern 3,516]

I have been on this since since the summer of 2013 and I am almost at 3 years post-op. I will admit that I read the posts that go wildly south when someone gets their feelings hurt, I giggle behind my computer, and for the most part I try not to engage, although there has been a time or two where I have felt the need to defend myself or someone else and I'm sure I upset people. I don't really care. I am who I am and this is the internet- if you don't like what I have to say, get over yourself and don't read it. I don't remember the last time a post actually offended me...usually I think the drama is kind of funny and some days I just skip over all the fighting posts to get to the end so I can reply to the original comment with something I hope is a little helpful.

Past that, I try to respond to the "I ate chocolate cake at 2 weeks post-op" with "it's not going to kill you, medically you're fine, but that isn't going to help you lose weight" as opposed to "OMG you broke the rules, you're going to die and go to bariatric surgery hell". I didn't follow all the rules. I use straws. Straws will not freaking hurt you and the people who debate it because their surgeon told them not to use straws and they have no understanding of how the body actually works make me roll my eyes. lf you want to do drugs, unless you are ingesting them shortly before or after surgery, no, smoking pot and shooting smack have nothing to do with your stomach- you might die for totally different reasons, but it's not the sleeve that's going to kill you. Posts where people place their own judgement on the use of drugs and alcohol instead of medically assessing the situation with a knowledge of physiology exhaust me. Don't judge someone because they sin differently than you- give them an honest answer to their question and if you really don't know the answer from a medical perspective free from bias, don't make crap up- that is not helpful.

If you want to eat junk, go for it- it's your success, not mine, but in the majority of "I ate this bad thing" posts on here are not actually going to physically hurt you when you are a few weeks post-op. You won't lose weight and you'll feel like garbage, but 95% of the time (again, within a reasonable time after surgery), medically these people are not hurting themselves any more than a regular person who eats stuff they shouldn't. If they want bacon and cake at 6 weeks post-op, have fun...who am I to tell them how to live their life?

I don't personally have a problem with the site, although I suppose it is probably because not much offends me. In the three years I have been on here, there have been two comments from veterans that I specifically remember made me feel the need to reply in my defense, and both times what could have been escalated into an actual internet fight, never did because two adults were engaged in a debate and they then moved on. I happen to really like both of these people and I think they bring a lot of value to the discussion- just because they don't always agree with me doesn't mean that they are wrong, that they should be censored, or that their opinion is not valuable.

If people want to be trolls and say mean things, then ignore them, the way you do in real life, but if someone doesn't agree with you, it's not a personal attack, it's just their right to have a different opinion. Lively debate is fun when adults act like adults and participate appropriately, however when people start calling each other names and crying about their feelings being hurt, I feel like I'm in pre-school and someone stole their legos. Be a big girl or boy and go take your damn legos back. Don't be a victim, but don't be a jerk. I have zero interest in a world or a discussion area where everyone gets along...that degree of groupthink adds no value, I just think the problem exists when people get bent out of shape and respond emotionally instead of rationally. If you don't like what someone says, let them know or move on...why cry about it?

I like BariatricPal, I like most of the people that I regularly engage with, and I don't much care if people don't like me. I am an anonymous person behind a computer...if you don't agree with me, cool, let's debate, but if it gets to a point where you are sincerely upset and can no longer engage in conversation like a mature adult....there is this magical "x" on your browser. Use it.

[LipstickLady 25,682]

Timing and degrees matter.

Some patients have a very hard time understanding and acting on the distinction between "cheating on a weight-loss diet" and "being highly compliant with surgeon's post-op recovery instructions." Others don't. I truly don't understand why some can't see this difference. But I know a lot of people never fully get it.

Every word of your post was on point, but THESE words... These are the words that don't seem to be clicking. It scares me at times. This is why I am a "mean girl" and a "bully" and an "a--h0le".

Cheat on WWs. Cheat on Jenny Craig. Don't cheat on your surgeon. It could be life and death, people.

[OutsideMatchInside 10,166]

I'm going to lump myself into the vet category since I am over a year out and surpassed goal. I think one thing that has not been mentioned is that as vets is that it is not our place to save anyone. We should strive to comment dispassionately on things that are known to be wrong.

I'm here for me. If I help people along the way, mores the better. If someone is self destructive, let them fail. Let them be the example to the others that don't want to listen to reason, wisdom, and experience.

Yeah, I know. I'm the @sshole.

I know 2 people that had WLS personally, well 3 I guess (old co-worker). Their failures taught me the things to avoid.

Eating regular food early = feeding tube

Not learning nutrition or how to eat healthy = regain

Not cooking =Regain

Viewing it as a diet = regain

Not logging food = regain

So there is a lot of learn from the failures of others. The only thing I see all the time on weightloss forums, is people aren't honest why they failed. They blame the surgery for not working, they blame their metabolism (which they never ever had tested). They never ever blame their actions or lack of action. They can never provide a detail of what they are eating.

I also feel like this rash of people having surgery are going to skew the statistics, make WLS seem less effective and make it harder for other people to get surgery through insurance in the future.

Anyway, I am still holding out hope that a lot of people are just trolls from the popularity of the app and not real WLS patients.

[Babbs 14,680]

OK, let's talk about concepts like "self righteousness," "compliance," "success," "failure," "consistency" and "perfection."

It's easier to feel self righteous when we narrow our eyes and start to engage in "black-and-white thinking," i.e., we start to consider that something is all bad or all good, all correct or all incorrect, 0% or 100%, or that the presence of a single attribute or a single act equates to the presence of scores of other attributes or acts.

At nearly two years post-op, the way I see life after WLS is that compliance isn't about being perfect. But there are enormous differences in the ways one can diverge from "100% compliance" and the possible ramifications of those divergences depending on HOW the patient diverged from their protocols and on WHEN (how long post-op) and FOR HOW LONG one engaged in those divergences.

I'm probably right in assuming that no one here has been "perfect" -- in the sense that immediately post-op we all have to work hard for several days or even several weeks to take in our required amounts of Water and Protein. I think our surgeons understand that. So "doing the best you can" means exactly that.

However, it's abundantly clear to me that some people try a helluva lot harder than others to be compliant with their surgeons' eating / drinking / exercise protocols -- not only in the early days but six months out, two years out, etc.

When you're five days post-op, eating bacon is in my opinion more dangerous than drinking only 50 ounces of Water instead of the surgeon's recommended 64 ounces. And eating bacon five days post-op isn't even close to the worst behavior I've heard. A friend told me about a patient who ate a Tijuana food truck Breakfast burrito the morning after surgery. I have read here of patients who went back to drinking alcohol the same week they had surgery and patients who didn't stop smoking either before or after surgery. Then there are the patients who argue that ice cream qualifies as pureed and soft foods.

Timing and degrees matter.

Some patients have a very hard time understanding and acting on the distinction between "cheating on a weight-loss diet" and "being highly compliant with surgeon's post-op recovery instructions." Others don't. I truly don't understand why some can't see this difference. But I know a lot of people never fully get it.

I've spent many, many hours on this board trying to clarify this distinction for pre-op and newly post-op posters. Most of the time I'm patient. And long-winded. But sometimes I get frustrated not only with those who immediately post-op do things that put their lives and health in danger, but also with those who provide "supportive" comments along the lines of, "It's OK, nobody's perfect." Very often these commenters haven't had surgery, any pre-op instructions or even attended an introductory lecture by a bariatric surgeon. Sometimes they have.

No WLS patient ever suffered from raising their compliance standards from "when it's not too hard" to "just do it!" Will any of us be 100% compliant? I doubt it. But I'd rather shoot for 100% compliance and hit 95% than aim for 80% and hit 60%. In fact, 95% even makes me feel a little ... wait for it ... self righteous.

This post was perfect on so many levels.

With me, I'm bound to react more with the people who don't 'get it' as opposed to the people who just do. If someone who 'gets it' says "OMG I had the worst night! I drank a whole bottle of wine!" I have a tendency to be a bit more lenient, because I know they will get their shiat together again. The ones that don't 'get it' can't seem to get their shiat together, make the same mistakes over an over again, and get defensive and aggressive when called out on their foolishness. They only respond to coddling and enabling.

By the way, I'm the fool who drank a whole bottle of wine in one evening. I'm also almost 2 years out and below goal. But I'm also not going to get defensive when someone tells me it was stupid. I know it was, and I paid dearly for it

[PatriotFan 23]

I feel if you don't want to help in a sincere and thoughtful way keep your thoughts to yourself. If your gonna drag up others mistakes on a forum over n over again then why waste your time stressing yourselves out? Idk how long Alex is going to allow you to keep giving your 2 cents when u carry it to another post that doest involve them. I hope you get your vet forum soon. I don't see where you really want to help. Hurting people's feelings when they own up to a mistake usually makes things worse. It's easy to take disapproval from your parents and feel it again in some of these posts you call hard love. You can say it in a posotive encouraging way. If your so over it you can't keep quiet. I'm not saying this out of guilt. I'm saying it with empathy and compassion. Never make someone who comes here and admits and takes accountability feel lower then they already do. We are all people. We all are imperfect. People come here for help it doesn't have to be this way. I've learned a lot from reading here everything but I don't like what you call hard love. It's more sarcasm and str out rude at times.

Sent from my iPhone using the BariatricPal App

[4MRB4PHOTO 3,899]

OK, let's talk about concepts like "self righteousness," "compliance," "success," "failure," "consistency" and "perfection."

It's easier to feel self righteous when we narrow our eyes and start to engage in "black-and-white thinking," i.e., we start to consider that something is all bad or all good, all correct or all incorrect, 0% or 100%, or that the presence of a single attribute or a single act equates to the presence of scores of other attributes or acts.

At nearly two years post-op, the way I see life after WLS is that compliance isn't about being perfect. But there are enormous differences in the ways one can diverge from "100% compliance" and the possible ramifications of those divergences depending on HOW the patient diverged from their protocols and on WHEN (how long post-op) and FOR HOW LONG one engaged in those divergences.

I'm probably right in assuming that no one here has been "perfect" -- in the sense that immediately post-op we all have to work hard for several days or even several weeks to take in our required amounts of Water and Protein. I think our surgeons understand that. So "doing the best you can" means exactly that.

However, it's abundantly clear to me that some people try a helluva lot harder than others to be compliant with their surgeons' eating / drinking / exercise protocols -- not only in the early days but six months out, two years out, etc.

When you're five days post-op, eating bacon is in my opinion more dangerous than drinking only 50 ounces of Water instead of the surgeon's recommended 64 ounces. And eating bacon five days post-op isn't even close to the worst behavior I've heard. A friend told me about a patient who ate a Tijuana food truck Breakfast burrito the morning after surgery. I have read here of patients who went back to drinking alcohol the same week they had surgery and patients who didn't stop smoking either before or after surgery. Then there are the patients who argue that ice cream qualifies as pureed and soft foods.

Timing and degrees matter.

Some patients have a very hard time understanding and acting on the distinction between "cheating on a weight-loss diet" and "being highly compliant with surgeon's post-op recovery instructions." Others don't. I truly don't understand why some can't see this difference. But I know a lot of people never fully get it.

I've spent many, many hours on this board trying to clarify this distinction for pre-op and newly post-op posters. Most of the time I'm patient. And long-winded. But sometimes I get frustrated not only with those who immediately post-op do things that put their lives and health in danger, but also with those who provide "supportive" comments along the lines of, "It's OK, nobody's perfect." Very often these commenters haven't had surgery, any pre-op instructions or even attended an introductory lecture by a bariatric surgeon. Sometimes they have.

No WLS patient ever suffered from raising their compliance standards from "when it's not too hard" to "just do it!" Will any of us be 100% compliant? I doubt it. But I'd rather shoot for 100% compliance and hit 95% than aim for 80% and hit 60%. In fact, 95% even makes me feel a little ... wait for it ... self righteous.

This post was perfect on so many levels.

With me, I'm bound to react more with the people who don't 'get it' as opposed to the people who just do. If someone who 'gets it' says "OMG I had the worst night! I drank a whole bottle of wine!" I have a tendency to be a bit more lenient, because I know they will get their shiat together again. The ones that don't 'get it' can't seem to get their shiat together, make the same mistakes over an over again, and get defensive and aggressive when called out on their foolishness. They only respond to coddling and enabling.

By the way, I'm the fool who drank a whole bottle of wine in one evening. I'm also almost 2 years out and below goal. But I'm also not going to get defensive when someone tells me it was stupid. I know it was, and I paid dearly for it

But you owned this alcohol consumption indiscretion, you didn't "whine" about it.

[Djmohr 6,965]

I'm going to lump myself into the vet category since I am over a year out and surpassed goal. I think one thing that has not been mentioned is that as vets is that it is not our place to save anyone. We should strive to comment dispassionately on things that are known to be wrong.

I'm here for me. If I help people along the way, mores the better. If someone is self destructive, let them fail. Let them be the example to the others that don't want to listen to reason, wisdom, and experience.

Yeah, I know. I'm the @sshole.

I know 2 people that had WLS personally, well 3 I guess (old co-worker). Their failures taught me the things to avoid.

Eating regular food early = feeding tube

Not learning nutrition or how to eat healthy = regain

Not cooking =Regain

Viewing it as a diet = regain

Not logging food = regain

So there is a lot of learn from the failures of others. The only thing I see all the time on weightloss forums, is people aren't honest why they failed. They blame the surgery for not working, they blame their metabolism (which they never ever had tested). They never ever blame their actions or lack of action. They can never provide a detail of what they are eating.

I also feel like this rash of people having surgery are going to skew the statistics, make WLS seem less effective and make it harder for other people to get surgery through insurance in the future.

Anyway, I am still holding out hope that a lot of people are just trolls from the popularity of the app and not real WLS patients.

Right on! This is why I personally have gotten invested in these particular posts. Because there are so many people that this surgery has saved/helped.

It is so frustrating to me that people fight so hard to get this surgery and get denied and then others choose to squander their shot or more importantly put themselves in danger and then blame WLS.

The idea that you would remove 85% of your stomach or reroute your insides only to do something that could prove to be dangerous to the success of this surgery.

These are the people that actually put the success of WLS and the reputations of their surgeons at risk.

They ruin it for others.....I had a friend who had an open RNY that was riddled with complications to the point she actually had to have it reversed. At the time, I had not idea of what was required so when hers failed and she became very very ill, it scared me and kept me from even considering this surgery for more than 17 years.

Now that I know all the darn rules, I look back at what she did and I know exactly why her surgery failed. She honestly did it to herself.

She was my roommate so I know what crap she put in her body immediately following bypass. I know she did not even drink a single Protein shake, nor did she take Vitamins. She drank alcohol within the first 2 weeks and pretty much ate what the rest of the family ate which was a high carb diet of macaroni and cheese, Pasta dishes, bread, etc.

I watched her get sick every single time she ate.

When she had her surgery reversed she was 5'3" and weighed 89lbs. I know this because I took care of her 5 children while she was in the hospital for over a month on a feeding tube.

The surgery did not do this to her, she did it. Every bit of it. That kept me scared to death to even try.

This of course was the extreme and I am also guessing they did not know as much about Bariatric surgery 20 years ago. But at the end of the day, it was what I saw and believed and was terrified and did nothing all that time.

For me, being 310 lbs caused severe damage to my spine and joints that cannot be undone.

This is why I am passionate about people who potentially cause damage to the success of the surgery or the reputations of the surgeons, doctors and nurses who perform it.

Incidentally, my friend Peggy gained all of that weight back and then some following her reversal.

Also, I am guessing this is exactly why there is such a long drawn out process to even be approved for this surgery. They want to make sure you are ready and willing to do what it is going to take to make it happen.

Sorry for the length of this post, if it helps one person understand why I and many others are frustrated by the lack of accountability or worse yet, other people thinking it's no big deal "people make mistakes", then it's worth it because so many new folks on here are still learning.