holy hell **Confrontation or Enabling ?**

[Djmohr 6,965]

This may be a bit off-topic and I am NOT giving freedom to those who intentionally do themselves harm / disobey instructions, but.... Does anyone think that any of this "I can do whatever I want" is related to the increase in the number or surgeries and lack of care / instruction on doctors' part? I have heard that ANY general surgeon can perform bariatric surgery after completing a "workshop" (Or whatever that might be called). I feel like there are too many doctors out there trying to "get rich quick" off of this and not really investing in a "program". Additionally, doctors are finding ways to do it cheaper and cheaper (partly by not having to staff a team of people to have a complete "program"). I even went to someone who was a "Center of Excellence" and left because the NUT was absolutely horrid and never available. They had an RN on staff you might be able to reach but the surgeons were basically contracted to just do the surgery. (My point being that I don't think "Center of Excellence" designation is all it is cracked up to be.) I am just not sure doctors are helping patients see the seriousness of this procedure.

Anyway, I know I digressed but every time I see folks who don't know anything about post-op instructions, it worries me that the doctor(s) never took the time to educate them. I did a lot of my own research (including this site) and was still completely overwhelmed with remembering the info. Thank goodness for this website and then my intense desire to make this work and seeking out counseling and a viable NUT on my own. Without those 3 things, the "tool" as we like to call it would have been completely useless.

Regarding the rest of this conversation, I concur with most of you. The odd posts of very early post-ops seem mostly suspicious to me. If it appears to be a valid question and no one else has answered, I try to offer and opinion; otherwise, I try to just move on. I am immensely grateful for the information and advice I have received from the vets on here and want to pay it forward as much as I can but I have found myself of late a bit exhausted with some of the questions.

I totally agree that not every program is not what it should be and I am also appalled at how many "PCP or General Doctors" have no idea how to deal with a WLS patient. I feel like I am always teaching them.

That aside, I would not let someone rearrange my insides or remove 85% of my stomach without understanding the care plan or expectations afterward. There are just too many people who come here looking for permission vs. real support. I suspect in most cases they come to a place like this because their surgeons already made clear the expectations and they want confirmation that not following it won't kill them.

I don't know for sure but in the last few months there is so much of it that it is scary on here. What's worse is the number of new people who simply coddle/support them by saying your human, it was a mistake and we all make them.

They are not getting that they are supposed be setting up long term habits and when you start by eating bacon or drinking coke 0 right away, it's clear that they don't care. When you affirm those things for a food addict is like giving them permission to keep doing what they are doing, it will be ok.

Most of us who have had Bariatric surgery are addicted to food and/or have very poor habits. When one reads that someone else ate bacon or drank coke 0 right after surgery its like saying great, I can have this surgery and still do what I want and everything will be ok.

Well, it won't be ok and long term you likely will be right back where you started giving WLS a bad name.

I am sorry, I am like a dog with a bone on this one.......LOL. Maybe I need to eat. Bahahahaha!

[summerset 5,261]

Absolutely magical...

Absolutely.

[summerset 5,261]

many people (out of shame) don't reconnect with support after weight gain. They feel they failed. Mistakes are made. My hope is they get back on the horse.

I don't want them feel that they will be beat down for mistakes on this site.

That is what makes me sad (not only on this board). People fail and feel shame on top of it.

What's even more sad is that other patients and the medical team often enough feed into that feelings of shame.

[summerset 5,261]

Does anyone think that any of this "I can do whatever I want" is related to the increase in the number or surgeries and lack of care / instruction on doctors' part?

Partly.

I think there were always non-compliant patients out there. With the number of surgeries the number of non-compliant patients automatically increases.

Let's assume for easy math 10% are not compliant. 10% out of 1000 patients are 100 patients. 10% out of 10000 are 1000 patients.

---

As for support before and after surgery: in Germany it's gotten way better. In the past surgeons thought patients have surgery and they're done (I got surgery in 2001 and when compared to what care is available today before and after surgery it is way better today).

I don't know what the situation is like in the USA though.

[summerset 5,261]

They aren't seriously looking for help, they are just looking for other people that have regained to whine with.

No, I think they're looking for absolution.

They feel like they committed a sin, confessed and want a "fast for three days, work out on the elliptical for six hours and don't sin anymore".

[Alex Brecher 10,495]

@@jenn1, Thanks for your attention to this issue and for trying to make a difference! I agree there has been a bit of apparent conflict, or lack of positivity on the boards recently, and it kills me. I started the boards because I wanted there to be a place for pre-op and post-op patients to go for encouragement, support, and information, not finger-pointing, blaming, and superiority complexes.

Most members are phenomenal and are really keeping these boards going in the right direction. I do hope the few members who may bring others down – intentionally or not – take responsibility for their own posts and take it upon themselves to think twice about how their replies and posts could be perceived by others.

[Healthy_life2 8,319]

@@Alex Brecher

Your advocacy for Bariatrics is appreciated. I love your site. I believe the members can get things back on track.

Thanks for all that you do,

Jenn

[Steven1954 89]

I lost my band in February after eight successful years. This is the best website for obtaining info. It's one thing having a band put in knowing it could be removed. But revising to rny is irreversible and a tough decision That being said it's easy to ignore squabbling while listening to experiences of other rny ers. Thank you to all contributors out there

[Steven1954 89]

In the eight years I had the band, I ran into many unsuccessful banders who were non compliant and drank their calories. They. Only fooled themselves. That's why insurance companies started refusing to pay for band removal for grossly non compliant banders. They also try to determine if there is "technical failure of the band" it's the same for any non compliant rny or sleeve people. If they cause a leak or do damage they could end up on a feeding tube. One thing I can tell you. After going from 305 to 175 for eight years. There is nothing as tasty as being thin.

[Sasha67 10]

I made a comment about the vets staying because most newbies need the help and the reply I received was ... Follow your program. Something to that fact. ... I'm not offended. But I think that as a newbie ,I may have a question or enjoy reading their success stories .. So to just say follow my program is not what a group forum is for. It's for support ... If I just follow my program what is the need for a group to discuss our stories with?

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[LipstickLady 25,682]

I made a comment about the vets staying because most newbies need the help and the reply I received was ... Follow your program. Something to that fact. ... I'm not offended. But I think that as a newbie ,I may have a question or enjoy reading their success stories .. So to just say follow my program is not what a group forum is for. It's for support ... If I just follow my program what is the need for a group to discuss our stories with?

Sent from my iPhone using the BariatricPal App

Girl, ask some questions, I am more than happy to tell you A LOT more than that!

[summerset 5,261]

I made a comment about the vets staying because most newbies need the help and the reply I received was ... Follow your program. Something to that fact. ... I'm not offended. But I think that as a newbie ,I may have a question or enjoy reading their success stories .. So to just say follow my program is not what a group forum is for. It's for support ...

This. A "follow your program" doesn't require (or isn't) any "vet wisdom". I'm not sure what is regarded as "vet wisdom"on here, but IMO "follow your program" or "talk to your NUT" or "you need to change your relationship with food" isn't valuable vet advice. That's only common sense. I also think of it as strange that people who're only 12 months out are already regarded as vets.

Advice from vets is necessary when your individual program doesn't get you the spectacular results you were hoping for or when you're severely struggling with following your program down the road.

Advice doesn't have to be anything fancy, it can be as simple as pointing out the title of a book that helped someone get their cravings under control.

[LipstickLady 25,682]

I made a comment about the vets staying because most newbies need the help and the reply I received was ... Follow your program. Something to that fact. ... I'm not offended. But I think that as a newbie ,I may have a question or enjoy reading their success stories .. So to just say follow my program is not what a group forum is for. It's for support ...

This. A "follow your program" doesn't require (or isn't) any "vet wisdom". I'm not sure what is regarded as "vet wisdom"on here, but IMO "follow your program" or "talk to your NUT" or "you need to change your relationship with food" isn't valuable vet advice. That's only common sense. I also think of it as strange that people who're only 12 months out are already regarded as vets.

Advice from vets is necessary when your individual program doesn't get you the spectacular results you were hoping for or when you're severely struggling with following your program down the road.

Advice doesn't have to be anything fancy, it can be as simple as pointing out the title of a book that helped someone get their cravings under control.

I disagree.

I'm not saying my advice is better than anyone else's. Period.

I am saying that someone who is one, two, three, five years post op and successful (or unsuccessful with a solid grasp on why) can offer much more than a book. Why else would these forums exist? Why would anyone join?

I am only a expert on me, but I can certainly share my experiences with nauseousness and what corrected it, dumping (yes, with a sleeve), chronic vomiting and Water poop, a stricture, an extremely teeny sleeve, etc. I can talk about how/why I changed surgeons halfway through process and having to start over. I can talk about cooking for my family immediately post op, etc.

Everyone who has gone through surgery can talk about their circumstances but as I was coming through, I wanted to learn from people who knew what it felt like, struggled, and succeeded anyways.

That's just me, though.

[4MRB4PHOTO 3,899]

@@summerset

Unless a "vet" is a health care professional, especially one that deals with obesity and/or bariatric medicine, they can only go by their personal experience and what they read.

Many times they are spot on, other times they are offering advice that may not be completely accurate.

Without knowing the person's health background, medicines they are taking and any medical conditions or conditions they are at a higher risk of, it is best to answer them with "follow your plan", etc..

For example, someone writes they have leg cramps and someone tells them to take large doses of potassium supplements because it worked for them and they read it can help those symptoms. Unfortunately the person asking for help has kidney problems -that could be medically unsafe.

Yes, people do look up to "vets" but they also need to follow their plans. If someone is doing one thing they shouldn't, then there is a good chance they aren't following other parts of the plan (eating too fast, eating certain foods before the appropriate stage, not exercising, not drinking enough liquids, not eating enough Protein, not taking their appropriate Vitamin supplements, amongst other common plan recommendations).

Edited July 12, 2016 by 4MRB4PHOTO

[Daisee68 2,493]

I just read another post where someone is talking about "cheating" on the pre-op liquid diet and one of the responses is "do what you feel"? Perhaps the worst advice and enabling I have seen yet. It is answers like this that make me want to run and not return like a recent vet posted about. SMH.... There may be some folks o. Here dishing out tough love occasionally, but THANK GOODNESS there are! With advice like "go ahead cheat - do what you feel is best - Dr will never know" is not only frightening but potentially life threatening. Wow. Just wow...

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