You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

The anti-choice's answer to what really happens to real women if they successfully legislate away the rights of women regarding abortion is always the same - tough luck, honey, if it means YOU die. They claim that tiny little blob of cells is a human being and that trumps any problems, physical or mental, that you have. They want to afford an embryo or stem cell all the rights and protection that the law offers every actual human being and they go so far as to stick the long arm of the law up a woman's vajayjay to prevent her from interfering with what they deem God's plan.

If a woman is raped by some crazed monster and it results in a pregnancy - that's God's plan. If a woman has physical problems that would put her life at stake if she carried a baby to term, tough luck 'cause it's God's plan for her to die in order to give that fertilized egg a chance at survival.

Oh man, I could go on and on with hundreds of very REAL scenarios that cause women to be in such horrible situations that they might need an abortion. But why bother? The right wing's answer is always the same - it's God's plan - so buck up sister.

When that's your only answer, there's no discussion or reasoning or compassion or anything else to consider. They claim that God demands that every woman who becomes pregnant, no matter what the circumstances, MUST attempt to physically nurture the embryo to full term and produce the child, if at all possible, since that is within God's plan.

When that is what you believe, you're going to do all you can to invade a woman's privacy and her body to enforce a rule that you believe is right and good to fulfill God's plan.

All we can do is fight for our rights. Fight for our freedom to decide for ourselves what must be medically done to preserve our health and our lives.

That means that we never give up the fight against the clergy and people who wish to control us and force us to do what they've deemed is God's plan. No matter how much guilt they heap on us, no matter how many gruesome photos they wave in our faces, no matter whether they point their guns at us or even shoot us. We cannot allow them to take control of our bodies by legally taking away every woman's right to make her own medical decisions to preserve her own health and well being.

They plan to outlast us, wear us down and guilt Congress into doing their bidding. We must never allow that to happen.

Bjean, I totally agree. We must never let them take away our rights.

Just because a lot of people agree with thou shalt not murder and what not doesn't mean they all make that decision based on a religious belief...I saw a bumper sticker yesturday that said: "I like your Christ, but can't stand your Christians" lol thought it was worth sharing :blushing:

Funny bumper sticker! It reflects how many people are feeling today about the right wing extremists trying to force their politics on everyone else.

If America is made up primarily of Christian people, lots and lots of Christians get abortions.

I am not catholic, and don't agree with alot of their doctrines, but this one is undeniably right in every christian denomination. Abortion is the killing of a baby. If the Catholic church states that you must be in agreement with their view on the issue in order to be in good standing with their denomination and be able to recieve communion with them, then every congregant of that church needs to have that same belief about abortion. If you publicly proclaim that you are pro choice, as this man did, then they have every right to refuse to administer communion to you. If you don't agree with your churches denomination about things, maybe you should attend elsewhere.

No priest has the right to deny communion to anyone because he does not know the confession history of that person. Nor should he. And the eucharist should NEVER be held hostage. That is an outrage and violates the very foundation upon which the church was built.

Additionally, if the priest has the right to deny communion, then to extrapolate on that, he should deny communion to those couples who he knows are living together or those who publicly support capital punishment.

If only the people who agreed 100% with the teachings of the church attended, the pews would be empty. I don't know of a single catholic who agrees with everything. Even the clergy don't agree on everything.

The Baptist church where I was a member, denied communion to certain people. The First Christian Church, on the other hand, held an open communion and encouraged everyone to join in the ritual.

The Catholic church has its' rules, just as other churches do. When my DH married me, a divorced woman, he was unable to take communion until my first marriage was annulled by the church. Well to be perfectly clear, if he had wanted to take communion, he could have. No priest would have stopped him at the altar and refused to allow him to sip from the cup. But they make their rules very clear to their parishioners and good Catholics wouldn't dream of going against those rules since most have been completely brainwashed at an early age, into believing that the Pope is infallible.

But I agree with you C'sM. It is an awful thing to do - for a church to use an important religious sacrament to get their members to agree to their beliefs 100%.

I wonder if the pediophile priests, hidden and/or relocated and known to the bishops were denied communion?

No of course not...back in Biblical times there was nothing wrong with having sex with a 10 year old...

I am a christian, and I am pro choice.

People in this country decide what laws should be followed and those in authority make the judgement of penalties for them. Why should this priest give his personal opinion on what the penalty should be for a woman having an abortion or for a doctor who provides it? Let the courts decide that. Courts don't make laws, they interpret them. Legislatures make laws.

The bishop is a bishop, not a legislator.

And it is the bishop's personal opinion that abortion should be illegal so why shouldn't he be expected to know what to do about it if it were to become illegal? The bishops sure had no trouble writing legislation in the current healthcare bill. They were front and center with their "opinions". For this bishop to not know what the answers are beyond making abortion illegal is the biggest cop out of all.

The bishop was only doing his job within the church. Catholics must adhere to the churches stand on issues or they are subject to excommunication and/or a refusal to be granted holy communion. If this senator had not exposed his belief that women should be allowed to have abortions, noone would have known except him and God, and he could have gone on living his Catholic lie thinking all was well between him, God and his denomination. But, he didn't. He allowed all the world to know his stand on abortion and got what the catholic church feels was right. he didn't get any 'special' treatment that anyone else who is catholic would not have gotten. You don't abide by their bylaws, you can't be a Catholic in good standing. period.

I personally feel that the laws we have right now in place for people who murder should be the same for women who do it to their unborn babies, and doctors should be chraged with it as well. I believe that a life is a life whether it's within a womans body or outside of it.

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Originally Posted by Cleo's Mom

People in this country decide what laws should be followed and those in authority make the judgement of penalties for them. Why should this priest give his personal opinion on what the penalty should be for a woman having an abortion or for a doctor who provides it? Let the courts decide that. Courts don't make laws, they interpret them. Legislatures make laws.

The bishop is a bishop, not a legislator.

If the bishop wants to change current law, which he does, then he is advocating for changing legislation, therefore he is acting like a legislator. And to extend that, he needs to follow through and say what he wants to do after abortion is made illegal with those who choose to have or provide one. That's part of the legislative change - you can't separate it. To not carry it through is dishonest.

When the bishops advocated for their language in the current healthcare bill they were acting like legislators so don't give me "THEY'RE NOT A LEGISLATOR" crap.

And it is the bishop's personal opinion that abortion should be illegal so why shouldn't he be expected to know what to do about it if it were to become illegal? The bishops sure had no trouble writing legislation in the current healthcare bill. They were front and center with their "opinions". For this bishop to not know what the answers are beyond making abortion illegal is the biggest cop out of all.

The bishop was only doing his job within the church. Catholics must adhere to the churches stand on issues or they are subject to excommunication and/or a refusal to be granted holy communion. If this senator had not exposed his belief that women should be allowed to have abortions, noone would have known except him and God, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT HIS VOTING RECORD AND PLATFORM ARE PUBLIC!!! and he could have gone on living his Catholic lie thinking all was well between him, God and his denomination. But, he didn't. He allowed all the world to know his stand on abortion and got what the catholic church feels was right. he didn't get any 'special' treatment that anyone else who is catholic would not have gotten. You don't abide by their bylaws, you can't be a Catholic in good standing. period.

Like I said, no priest has the right to deny anyone communion because they don't know that person's confession history. Using this mind-thought then the priest should deny communion to those he knows are living together or those who publicly support capital punishment (most, if not all elected republicans). To do otherwise would be hypocritical and be giving special treatment to some. But of course, we know this doesn't happen and isn't even in the public discussion.

PG,

Again, you don't get it. The point of the interview was, if you saw the video, was the priest had no answer beyond the "abotion is a sin". Same as you.

So what. He doesn't need to have the answers for society. He needs to have the answers for his church denomination. The answer was this: If you want to be a Catholic, you must adhere to the Catholic faiths rules. Abortion is a sin and it's wrong and if you don't agree with them on that issue, then get out of the church. That's all he was trying to tell people. He did not need to come up with any laws or penalties against it. That's not his job. He did what he had to do within his job, and excomunicating the Senator was it.

NO one wants to label it murder in practice, and NO ONE EVER WILL. You have to have answers beyond that and what we have said and keep saying is no legislator is going to be ruled completely by their views. That train has passed. We came to that precipise with Roe vs. Wade, NEVER TO TURN BACK. Look at countries that let religious rhetoric rule ever aspect of their living. They have mayhem and murder that is wide spread with no relief in sight. You keep saying "if they only legislated by this religious view or that one". Never going to happen.

America doesn't let religion rule every aspect of their living. Morals are a good thing. What's wrong with doing what's right? You have a problem with that? The two basic controversial issues in America that people are up in arms about are abortion and gay marriage. Both are sinful acts, but so is adultry and having sex outside of marriage, but you don't see any laws enacted for them. There is a big difference between killing life and having sex outside of marriage. Christians are willing to walk away from the adultry and sex outside of marriage thing because when someone commits those sins they are not hurting anyone but themselves, but having an abortion ends a babies life, and legalizing gay marriages hurts the moral fabric of what marriage and family is all about.

The priest jumped on TV and made himself look like an ass who was bullying from the pulpit for something he knows nothing about and no answers for. He kept saying "I am not a legislator". Being a priest is his job. Being a legislator is the jobs of the Senate and House. They reflect the whole of society not the Catholic part of society. You want them to legislate by Catholic rules and we are not just a Catholic nation thus no legislator can rule by his or her personal opinion just because he believes something else other than what needs to be decided. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. I have never seen so many people bump their head against a collective wall like the religious. The clock will never turn back.

Catholic people are not the only people who believe abortion is murderous. So does every christian denomination as well as people who never even entered a church and have no belief in God at all. Even the ungodly can fathom that vaccuming a moving, heartbeating, thumbsucking baby as he screams and is tortured in the evacuation is insane and inhuman and definitely murder!

I can't have this argument again. I lose a couple IQ points talking about this rule from the pulpit crap. Priest shows the best example of why not. For you to continue on in this vein is either idiocy, a joke you wish to keep going or you are slow. Either way, you are making me feel sorry again for you. Lord only knows what your decifering skills are because you can't seem to understand the difference between facts and the bible, interpretation and the real world and a whole host of things.

Yet again another bump of the head against the wall.........

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Again, you don't get it. The point of the interview was, if you saw the video, was the priest had no answer beyond the "abotion is a sin". Same as you.

So what. He doesn't need to have the answers for society. He needs to have the answers for his church denomination. The answer was this: If you want to be a Catholic, you must adhere to the Catholic faiths rules. Abortion is a sin and it's wrong and if you don't agree with them on that issue, then get out of the church. That's all he was trying to tell people. He did not need to come up with any laws or penalties against it. That's not his job. He did what he had to do within his job, and excomunicating the Senator was it.

SO WHAT?? These bishops don't just advocate for the catholic beliefs. If they did, they would limit themselves to the pulpit. THEY ARE LOBBYISTS. DON'T YOU GET IT??? GEEZ!!

They lobby, just like corporate america does, to get changes in legislation. As such, they have a moral obligation to follow through and tell America exactly what it is they hope to accomplish by making abortion illegal for those who choose to have or provide one.

It's not enough for them to say abortion is a sin, they are saying to legislators: Make abortion illegal. IS THAT DISTINCTION LOST ON YOU??? REALLY!!

And once they want to make it illegal, they absolutely have the obligation to say what exactly they want done with those who break this law.

I want them to say outloud, in the media: " We want the pregnant women in jail looking out from behind bars." And if that's not what they want, then they need to say that, too.

This isn't about denying communion, it is about what the catholic church hierarchy is lobbying legislators for and what the consequences of those laws would be.

It is beyond dishonest to say: "I want abortion to be illegal but I don't know what should be done with those who break the law". They can't own the law without owning the consequences.

They sure don't have any problem telling us what the consequences are of breaking the church's law so if they're going to venture out into the political world then be prepared to follow through.

Again, you don't get it. The point of the interview was, if you saw the video, was the priest had no answer beyond the "abotion is a sin". Same as you.

So what. He doesn't need to have the answers for society. He needs to have the answers for his church denomination. The answer was this: If you want to be a Catholic, you must adhere to the Catholic faiths rules. Abortion is a sin and it's wrong and if you don't agree with them on that issue, then get out of the church. That's all he was trying to tell people. He did not need to come up with any laws or penalties against it. That's not his job. He did what he had to do within his job, and excomunicating the Senator was it.

SO WHAT?? These bishops don't just advocate for the catholic beliefs. If they did, they would limit themselves to the pulpit. THEY ARE LOBBYISTS. DON'T YOU GET IT??? GEEZ!!

They lobby, just like corporate america does, to get changes in legislation. As such, they have a moral obligation to follow through and tell America exactly what it is they hope to accomplish by making abortion illegal for those who choose to have or provide one.

You don't know what those who are opposed to abortion hope to accomplish by making it illegal? They hope to accomplish the saving of innocent human being lives. Nothing more. Where have you been?

It's not enough for them to say abortion is a sin, they are saying to legislators: Make abortion illegal. IS THAT DISTINCTION LOST ON YOU??? REALLY!

And once they want to make it illegal, they absolutely have the obligation to say what exactly they want done with those who break this law.

Those who break the law should be punished as any murderer is punished. In our society we put those who murder in prison.

I want them to say outloud, in the media: " We want the pregnant women in jail looking out from behind bars." And if that's not what they want, then they need to say that, too.

It's what I feel is fair. When a person kills someone, they go to jail. This would be hard for someone to come right out and say because it has been a freedom in this country for so long to commit this atrocity and the people are immune and desensitized to the murderous act. Those who are for choice feel that it's nothing to vaccum out a live baby from the uterus and destroy it's life, and therefore, to suggest that they should have the same penalty as any other murderer would outrage them. They don't believe they are killing a baby because they don't want to believe it, for if they did admit it was a baby they just killed, they would fell terrible about what they've done and they don't want to feel guilty. They just want their 'problem' to go away.

This isn't about denying communion, it is about what the catholic church hierarchy is lobbying legislators for and what the consequences of those laws would be.

It is beyond dishonest to say: "I want abortion to be illegal but I don't know what should be done with those who break the law". They can't own the law without owning the consequences.

You simply want them to come right out and tell you that they should get the same punishment as any other murderers, so that you could have one more thing to be outraged with them about. If I were them, I would have stated my own belief for what the punishment should be. But, I don't know what they feel it should be, so I can't speak for them.

They sure don't have any problem telling us what the consequences are of breaking the church's law so if they're going to venture out into the political world then be prepared to follow through.

They didn't have any problem telling you what their churches law was because that's their job to do so, They're not legislators./QUOTE]

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You don't know what those who are opposed to abortion hope to accomplish by making it illegal? They hope to accomplish the saving of innocent human being lives. Nothing more. Where have you been?

Nothing more? Oh, I think it is a lot more. It isn't just about stopping abortions, because legal or illegal, they will still happen. It's about control. And if they want control over women's bodies then they need to say what the punishment should be after they exercise that control and the woman defies it and "breaks the law".

Yes, I want them to say what the punishment should be. Out loud. In the media and with the same ferocity that they oppose abortion. And if it's jail then have the guts to say it. That bishop on the Chris Matthews tape didn't have the guts to say it because he knew what the repercussions would be. He's a coward.