You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

patty: "Do you see how you over exagerate and dramatize what I say?"

No patty it isn't that I over exaggerate or dramatize what you say, it is that when your rant comes back to bite you, you either deny that you meant it that way or that it isn't your word but it's God's word and that you aren't responsible for it in any case.

To worship Satan is to get down on your knees knowingly paying homage to him and giving him your allegience. This is what you claimed I said that unbelievers who didn't choose Christ were doing. You said that I was saying that everyone else but christians was doing that. This is why I said you were exagerating what I said. What I meant was that those who are against God are for Satan, unbeknownst to them.

When people commit murder and claim that it is in the name of God or Allah, that doesn't make them crazy.

Yes it does. It definitely does. Anyone who commits murder is crazy.

The man who killed Dr. Tiller hasn't been thought of as crazy.

Yes he has.

Some of the anti-choice movement have been delirously happy that Dr. Tiller was murdered and that his wife has decided to close his clinic. Many of those people are "born again" Christians.

Where do you get that info. I personally know hundreds of born again christians and NONE of them feel that he was in the right whatsoever.

They are not all crazy, unless you are saying that you have to be crazy to believe in the "born again" exclusionary, single-minded, holier than thou philosophy.

patty: "Salvation is NOT about the good or bad things we do. It has nothing to do with whether you were a good person or not."

And those very words give "born agains" the right to commit any sin that they decide is pleasing to God, and it is is perfectfly acceptable in their eyes.

No they don't. Born again believers understand that there are consequences for our sins, and do not sin willfully just because our God is merciful. You have them pegged wrongly.

I am sorry for you that you are living the way you are. I know why some of you pray so loud and long every night. It is to drown out your subconscious voice that is trying to tell you how wrong your bad deeds are - the things that you commit here on earth against other human beings and then declare that it is in the name of God.

I never commit anything wrong in the name of God. I do however commit sin at times.

Please don't feel sorry for me. I am happy in my lifestyle.

..............................................................

Patty,

I want to apologize for the tone of my last comment. First let me say that I am extremely skeptical of religion and faith, not just yours but all of them so my criticism is aimed at all of them not just yours. Second I will do everything in my power to make the point that religion should be a personal thing and has absolutely no place in public policy.

Having said that, I totally respect the fact that you believe in what you believe in. Just as much as I will fervently fight to keep yours and any religion out of our government, I would fight and die for your absolute right to believe as you do. The last thing I want to do is ridicule someone for their beliefs. Just because I do not believe what you believe I have no right to make fun of it, I’m sorry if it came across that I way. I will continue to debate you on what our government should and should not do, issues of morality, and even the merits and nuances of religion and faith (and I’m sure these debates will be spirited). I will however try my best to draw the line at making insensitive comments about your personal beliefs.

Kartman

Kartman, Thank you soooo much. It is refreshing to have someone who will not be insensitive to my faith and what I believe God has said on issues. I like you. And if I have ever said anything insensitve to you, I apologize as well.

It is never my intent to hurt anyone here.

But Carrie we're having a debate here. Patty has turned it into a debate about religious beliefs.

In the process of defending our beliefs we find ourselves "bashing" those who do not share them. If someone of the Catholic or Jewish faith or if an atheist were confronting you and telling you that only they have the answers and that you are going to hell if you don't agree with them, it incites anger and bashing.

She certainly does not speak for all Christians. That is for sure. But if she doesn't want to be bashed, she shouldn't make it so personal.

I totally agree with you. It seems that patty takes over every thread and turns EVERYTHING into a religious debate. I don't agree with her views at all. She gives all christians a bad name. So how about we all put her on ignore and then we will all get along just fine?!! :ihih:

patty: "What I meant was that those who are against God are for Satan, unbeknownst to them."

Key word being "unbeknownst" I guess. I believe that is quite a different characterization from the context where you first posed it.

patty: "Anyone who commits murder is crazy."

Then we are crazy as a country. We've committed murder and horrible atrocities in Iraq and elsewhere. We commit murder when we kill convicts who have been convicted of crimes.

There are many people who have committed murder and after being tried in a court of our laws, are found to be as sane as you and me. You can't make a blanket statement like that and expect to be believed.

patty: "Where do you get that info. I personally know hundreds of born again christians and NONE of them feel that he was in the right whatsoever."

Do you have or watch television? There have been several who have been very outspoken and open about their feelings. It has been disgraceful and shocking. Some of them even serve in our Congress.

Furthermore, people like Bill O'Reilly said that they didn't expect that man to kill the doctor, but they made irrresponsible statements on a regular basis that served to incite someone like that man. Now they are trying to skate backward and say that they didn't intend for anyone to take them literally when they said that abortion is murder and that we shouldn't allow doctors to perform late term abortions.

Why can't people be held responbile for what they say when they are intentionally causing the fringe to take the law into their own hands? Why do we accept the old adage that "words don't hurt"?

patty: "No they don't. Born again believers understand that there are consequences for our sins, and do not sin willfully just because our God is merciful. You have them pegged wrongly."

You are mistaken. First of all I didn't say that "born again" extremists don't think there are consequences, I said that they believe that they are doing God's bidding. If someone commits murder, of course they know that the laws of the land will hold them responsible and they will have to pay the consequences. But that doesn't stop the extremist who believes that he is doing what God would have him do. Neither does it stop the extremist Muslims who flew their planes into the World Trade Center. They knew that if they got caught they would have to pay the physical consequences. But they thought that Allah would forgive them and reward them in heaven for it.

I am sure that not ALL "born again" believers are extremists and violent. But some are. And they are the ones that we fear the most. But the ones who spout hate and intolerance and fear and retribution are also to be feared. All you have to do is look at history and you don't have to go back very far. And all you have to do is watch television or read some threads here at LBT to witness the hate-speak that some "born agains" spew against the "non-believers" to know that we need to expose them and their wrong thinking.

Oh. Now that I've just posted that to you kartman, I read your latest. You are awesome. Thank you so much. I am so heartened to read your posts and those of rodriguez, Lydia and Carrie. It gives me faith in the good people of this country. Faith that we will prevail and that a climate of unity can be restored in this country.

(For the record, I like to read your posts a whole lot better than my own!)

Did you mean "faith in all the non christians"? You know, the "good" people?:ihih:

Because there are plenty of good christians. Those like the abortion doctor killer should NOT be considered part of Christ's family. He willfully committed a horrible crime of murder and is not held in high esteem by christians! I know you "LOVE" to continue to include people like him among us christian believers, but would it be fair for me to say that every non believer in Christ that committed a murder or an atrocious crime is one of yours? They think like you do? No, that wouldn't be fair, would it. So drop it, bjean! You know full well that ANY person, christian or not, that commits murder in ANYBODYS name is sick and has mental/emotional problems and is not a representative of a group by which they affirm themselves!

patty: "It is never my intent to hurt anyone here."

That may be true. I don't doubt that when you post, you don't intend to be mean or hateful because when I or someone else has called you on it you seem to be surprised. But it's what is deeply embedded in your heart and head that you don't seem to realize may be guiding you. That is the reason that I have asked you to stop and think about what God REALLY wants from you in this life.

I understand that you don't think this life on earth holds much importance in the grand scheme of things, but in fact, it is all-important. How we live our lives and how we treat others represents exactly the life lessons that Jesus sought to teach us. You and other hard-headed, hard-hearted "born again" Christians need to dig deeper into your souls to come up with the answers that Jesus was sent here to teach you.

Step back from your clan. Stop listening for a minute to the rhetoric that you have so fervently embraced that has closed your mind to other lessons that you need to learn before you die. His life represents so much more than just the simple phrase "Jesus died for your sins."

patty: "Because there are plenty of good christians. Those like the abortion doctor killer should NOT be considered part of Christ's family. He willfully committed a horrible crime of murder and is not held in high esteem by christians! I know you "LOVE" to continue to include people like him among us christian believers, but would it be fair for me to say that every non believer in Christ that committed a murder or an atrocious crime is one of yours? They think like you do? No, that wouldn't be fair, would it. So drop it, bjean! You know full well that ANY person, christian or not, that commits murder in ANYBODYS name is sick and has mental/emotional problems and is not a representative of a group by which they affirm themselves!"

And they say denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Patty, the point is that the killer of Dr. Tiller THINKS he is working for God. Please stop and think about that for a minute instead of being so defensive.

Of course not all Christians are bad Christians and by the same token, not ALL Christians are good Christians. Even you admitted that, I believe. In fact, you've even said that if a Christian is not actually "born again" they aren't the kind of Christian that you are. The superior kind, the kind that God has chosen to go to heaven.

patty: "Did you mean "faith in all the non christians"? You know, the "good" people? "

patty have you ever once read a post of mine that said that only non Christians are good people?

bjean:Then we are crazy as a country. We've committed murder and horrible atrocities in Iraq and elsewhere. We commit murder when we kill convicts who have been convicted of crimes.

War is not considered murder. It is killing. There is a diffence. Killing in self defense is allowed by God. If someone threatens you, you are allowed to defend yourself. This is what is done in war. Someone decides to take over your property, and you defend it. Someone decides to take away your freedoms, and you defend them. There is no sin in war.

Convicts who have committed crimes need to be killed. They are not murdered. There is a difference. If a person commits murder, his life should end as well. God allows this form of punishment for that sort of crime.

patty: "Because there are plenty of good christians. Those like the abortion doctor killer should NOT be considered part of Christ's family. He willfully committed a horrible crime of murder and is not held in high esteem by christians! I know you "LOVE" to continue to include people like him among us christian believers, but would it be fair for me to say that every non believer in Christ that committed a murder or an atrocious crime is one of yours? They think like you do? No, that wouldn't be fair, would it. So drop it, bjean! You know full well that ANY person, christian or not, that commits murder in ANYBODYS name is sick and has mental/emotional problems and is not a representative of a group by which they affirm themselves!"

And they say denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Patty, the point is that the killer of Dr. Tiller THINKS he is working for God.

Well, he 'thinks' wrong! There was a woman who killed all her children cause she said God spoke to her. There was another person I heard of who killed her children because Satan spoke to her. So what? Doesn't mean christians in general all think that way. Get real!

Please stop and think about that for a minute instead of being so defensive.

You're the one who needs to do some thinking!

Of course not all Christians are bad Christians and by the same token, not ALL Christians are good Christians. Even you admitted that, I believe. In fact, you've even said that if a Christian is not actually "born again" they aren't the kind of Christian that you are. The superior kind, the kind that God has chosen to go to heaven.

It is your opinion of me that says I feel I am 'superior', not anything I said. BTW God doesn't choose who goes to heaven and who doesn't. He leaves that up to each individual.

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Edited June 10, 200917 yr by pattygreen

Webster's Unabridged does not share your gratituous definition of those two words. Basically Webster's says:

Murder: to KILL a person; to KILL inhumanely or barbarously as in WARFARE, to destroy or put an end to.

Kill: to cause death, to DESTROY, to put an end to, to destroy life.

You are splitting hairs. Nowhere is there a definition that says that murder is an acceptable atrocity in war and that killing is okay if someone threatens you.

Taking a life is taking a life. We had no reason to go into Iraq and murder innocent people who had done us no harm. We had no reason to go into Vietnam and destroy those people who had done us no harm. There is no justification for sending our military men and women over to those countries to kill, murder, maim and destroy. I believe that a strong defense is our best weapon against invasion and terrorism. But when did we become a country that invades other countries for profit? We sure didn't invade those countries because they threatened our lives.

Convicts who have committed crimes do not need killing. When we execute a prisoner, we are killing people to punish them for killing. How is that in any way justifiable? It is not. We become what our actions are. If we kill we are killers. We should learn how to rehabilitate and if we cannot rehabilitate convicts then we should keep them separated from society in order to protect the innocent.

You continuously justify your beliefs based on your interpretation of the Bible, It makes you a person who is able to justify killing. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I reference Dr. Tiller's killer. The man who murdered Dr. Tiller would say that he went to the defense of innocent babies who could not defend themselves. You've said that it is okay to kill if you are defending youself (or others in war.)

Perhaps you are one anti-choice person who believes that women who need late-term abortions should be able to find qualified and caring doctors who will do the medical procedure that they need. But many, many people who are involved in the anti-choice movement do not share your beliefs on that. They are exhilarated by the fact that Dr. Tiller's clinic will be closed indefinitely. And they do believe that killing Dr. Tiller was justifiable murder committed in order to defend the innocent lives of babies.

This all started with the hate-speak about abortion. It has advanced over the years to the point where graphic photographs are displayed to horrify the women who are in need of an abortion. They picket clinics - even Planned Parenthood - an organization that saves lives. They have rallies and make carry signs to intimidate women who go to clinics for help. They lobby in Washington to influence our Congress. It has gotten to the point where they don't just demonstrate. They don't just speak out trying to pursuade women and men to join their fight. They have become hateful. They have become violent and they have committed murder.

It has to stop. People must start taking responsibity for their hateful words and deeds. It's a free country, and I believe in free speech, but when it gets to the point that it is infringing on other people's rights, it has to stop!

To this point, watch the news tonight. It will tell you about a killer, a murderer, who today took the law into his own hands at the Holocost Museum because he spent a lot of time being very vocal, speaking hate, against one race of people.

patty: "It is your opinion of me that says I feel I am 'superior', not anything I said. BTW God doesn't choose who goes to heaven and who doesn't. He leaves that up to each individual."

Yes, it is everything you said that makes me think that you feel religiously superior to those who do not share your beliefs. I'm not making it up. You need to take responbility for your words.

And although you say that God chooses who goes to heaven and who doesn't, you have made it perfectly clear that YOU are the one who decides what God's prerequisites are for doing the choosing. So yeah, he chooses, just so long as we believe what YOU believe.

Besides the fact that God approves capitol punishment, it is also a deterent to crime.

The death penalty is a warning, just like a lighthouse throwing its beams out to sea. We hear about shipwrecks, but we do not hear about the ships the lighthouse guides safely on their way. We do not have proof of the number of ships it saves, but we do not tear the lighthouse down."(1)

If capital punishment is even a potential deterrent, that is a significant enough social reason to implement it.

I believe one of the 10 commandments is "Thou shall not KILL"......

Capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime. Ask the experts, don't take my word for it.

Or just look at our prisons and the number of murders committed every day. You'll get a serious look at the fact that planned murders and those that are committed in the heat of the moment are not affected by the fact that someday they could die for the crime they're committing.

Capital punishment as a deterrent is one of the fallacies we deal with in our society.