Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

[JeninCO 0]

There is no correlation between an unplanned pregnancy and abuse, abandonment, and neglect. In fact, most children who are abused were planned, wanted pregnancies.

That is patently untrue. If these children were truly planned, wanted and loved, they would never have been abandoned, neglected or abused. There are no statistics to really back up either of our claims, because how can that be quantified?

I doubt very much that you've ever been put into a position where you've had to make such a horrific choice, and I don't think that anyone should judge anyone else until they have.

Doesn't the Bible say "judge not lest ye be judged"?

[gadgetlady 4]

That is patently untrue. If these children were truly planned, wanted and loved, they would never have been abandoned, neglected or abused. There are no statistics to really back up either of our claims, because how can that be quantified?

I will find some studies on it later and post them.

I doubt very much that you've ever been put into a position where you've had to make such a horrific choice, and I don't think that anyone should judge anyone else until they have.

Doesn't the Bible say "judge not lest ye be judged"?

Don't judge me. Maybe I have been in the position before. You don't know.

I'm not advocating judgment of a personal action which affects no one but oneself. I'm advocating a law against killing people. There's a big difference. If you believe we shouldn't judge anyone, then there should be no laws at all.

[JeninCO 0]

I'm sure you're a wonderful person in life, but you're very hard and unyielding on this board.

It's your opinion, and I respect it, I really do, but at the same time I do judge you for your judgmentalism.

[gadgetlady 4]

I'm sure you're a wonderful person in life, but you're very hard and unyielding on this board.

I'm sorry I come across that way, but it's difficult on a chat board to determine someone's compassion. I am very strong on this issue because I abhor the deliberate dismembering of innocent children. That is not to say I don't know women who have had abortions -- in fact, I have several very dear friends who have (and are now suffering because of it). I will never bend on this issue, but that doesn't mean I don't care for or about those who have been through it. I have helped women for years through this decision and after their decisions.

Well, that's awfully judgmental of you.

If you had the opportunity to speak with any of the people that I know or have counseled after abortions, you would be surprised that one of the first words that they use to describe me is non-judgmental. The discussion we're having here is something I consider more of a debate or education discussion.

[JeninCO 0]

At least you're consistent in your beliefs. I find it offensive when "pro-lifers" only apply that position to abortion, yet believe in the death penalty.

[BJean 16]

I am completely and utterly disgusted by some of the posts here. It is absolutely not anyone's business what me and my doctor decide is the right and healthy choice for my body. To legislate interference in my medical care (or anyone's) is intrusive and should be illegal and there should be no law passed that requires my doctor or me to do or not do anything with my body!!!!!!!!!

One fine example of why this is so extremely frightening is the very thought of someone like gadgetlady making any decision in my life based on her beliefs.

Make no mistake about it you all, the anti-choice people are deliriously happy about this turn of events in the Supreme Court. It is the first step in reinstating a legal ban against abortions of any kind. Just exactly what the "decider" had in mind when he appointed those two clowns.

What's next? Because I guarantee you it will be another personal right of mine that they will attack and force their parameters for living on me. They may say that you should "turn it over to God" but they don't mean it. They really want us all to turn it over to them. They've appointed themselves as the belief police in this country and watch out folks, they're the only ones who know what's best for everyone. We who have differing beliefs are "evil doers" and need to be saved from ourselves.

Wonder if any of these anti-choice people own guns? I know, I know, they're just for target practice. Poppycock. They are instruments of death. I would dearly love to see their faces if and when we leftists manage to ban all their assault rifles and armour piercing bullets and automatic weapons because of the outrage over the events in Blacksburg.

Leave my rights alone! Take care of yourself. Don't tell me whether I can smoke or drink (I don't) or chase men (I don't) or decide to have 5 DNR directives (in case one gets misplaced.) Don't tell me that I can't have an abortion when my doctor and I decide that it is the correct medical choice for me. Don't tell me that I HAVE to be put on a respirator, have dialysis, be fed through a tube and kept alive only to prolong my miserable painful life. (Like my father.)

Get your own life. Leave mine alone. Move to a country where you are told how to live and be happy and content with it. I'll never be happy with some of you right wingers taking away my personal, medical and other freedoms. Keep it up. You're going to ensure that a Democrat is elected in 2008.

[BJean 16]

Well this IS the rants and raves section, isn't it? Just doing my part.

[gadgetlady 4]

Get your own life. Leave mine alone. Move to a country where you are told how to live and be happy and content with it.

I'm happy to leave you and your life alone. Do whatever you want. Smoke, drink, take drugs, commit suicide, become a prostitute, have an affair, get a divorce, authorize someone to take you off life support when you're sick, whatever. Those are all decisions that you have a right to make with your own life. When another person's body is involved, however, that's where I draw the line. And in the case of abortion, another person's body is involved.

[NVgirl 2]

You know what I find interesting?

The fact that pro-life individuals are so "in-your-face" about abortion being wrong, murder, yada yada yada. The seem to enjoy making persons that are deciding, have decided, or had an abortion to be terrible human beings. There seems to be very little compassion on their end.

I suspect that a good portion of abortions are because of unplanned, unwanted pregnancy.

Instead of demonizing women who make this choice, what about setting up counseling for adoption? So many young people these days think adoption is "giving away their baby" and makes them look like a bad person, which is completely not the case. I did some volunteer counseling of young mothers about the adoption process, and it was amazing to hear that it's either abort or keep the child. There's no middle ground.

I've have personally been on every side of this issue - I am adopted, I put a child up for adoption when I was a teen, I've had an abortion and I have two sons. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, when it seemed that abortion protesting was at it's highest, never once did I walk past a group of protesters that were kind, or that offered me any help whatsoever. (I worked very close to a planned parenthood type facility and often walked over there to pick up birth control pills.)

So, for all the pro-lifers out there, put your money where your mouth is and treat these women with the dignity and respect they deserve. Set up programs designed to help instead of just tossing verbal barbs at them.

I think the whole situation is ridiculous. It is my body, it is my choice. Until that child leaves my body, it remains my choice.

[gadgetlady 4]

You know what I find interesting?

The fact that pro-life individuals are so "in-your-face" about abortion being wrong, murder, yada yada yada. The seem to enjoy making persons that are deciding, have decided, or had an abortion to be terrible human beings. There seems to be very little compassion on their end.

I suspect that a good portion of abortions are because of unplanned, unwanted pregnancy.

Instead of demonizing women who make this choice, what about setting up counseling for adoption? So many young people these days think adoption is "giving away their baby" and makes them look like a bad person, which is completely not the case. I did some volunteer counseling of young mothers about the adoption process, and it was amazing to hear that it's either abort or keep the child. There's no middle ground.

I've have personally been on every side of this issue - I am adopted, I put a child up for adoption when I was a teen, I've had an abortion and I have two sons. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, when it seemed that abortion protesting was at it's highest, never once did I walk past a group of protesters that were kind, or that offered me any help whatsoever. (I worked very close to a planned parenthood type facility and often walked over there to pick up birth control pills.)

So, for all the pro-lifers out there, put your money where your mouth is and treat these women with the dignity and respect they deserve. Set up programs designed to help instead of just tossing verbal barbs at them.

I think the whole situation is ridiculous. It is my body, it is my choice. Until that child leaves my body, it remains my choice.

The resources set up by pro-lifers to assist pregnant women abound. The quantity of organizations set up to assist women with unplanned pregnancies, including adoption options, homes set up for women in crises, free counseling, and many others is huge. The quantity of Crisis Pregnancy Centers well outnumbers the quantity of abortion clinics.

Just because the physical act of dismembering a baby in utero disgusts us doesn't mean we don't have compassion for the women who feel their situation is so dire that they must resort to abortion. The first trimester of pregnancy, when most women abort, is the most hormonal time of a woman's life. Couple that with a society that tells women they can "get rid of the problem" with no ill after-effects and an abortion industry that doesn't inform women about fetal development and the nature of the procedure they will be going through, and it's no wonder the quantity of abortions is so high.

Most people are ignorant about fetal development facts, as they are also about what the abortion procedure is. And, btw, the current ban on partial-birth abortion includes sanctions for doctors who perform it, not women who receive it.

[green 6]

Well, for some of us the situation doesn't hinge on dire. We are those women who have had a birth control screw-up. We are just not prepared to go through 9 months of pregnancy. We simply don't wish to engage in the psychological, physical or financial issues connected with carrying a child to term.

An As Soon As Possible abortion is a good thing as far as we are concerned. This puts us on an equal standing with men; otherwise there is a double standard concerning male and female behaviour and we may as well all be wearing the niqab.

If a modern society opts to deny women the right to choose then it should be open to making available to women, to all women, the other option, that of failure-proof birth control. And even then there will be women who still get pregnant by accident. Let them have the right to decide what they want to do. It really is none of your business.

[BJean 16]

You don't own me. You can't get your hands on a baby that I am carrying. The baby can't survive without me as long as I'm carrying it. I'm with Green. It's none of your business.

Just because you've decided that it is your job to raise my child doesn't mean that it is the right thing for any of us involved. I could cite examples but I don't believe that it is necessary. We all know the score.

Just because you think that you should be able to control my body doesn't make it right. I know how strongly you feel, but there are lots and lots of people who disagree with you. You're wanting your beliefs, that will control my body, to be legislated. I think that is a very bad thing.

There have always been abortions and there will always be abortions. I would rather have them performed in a medically safe environment and I do not believe that it is good for our society to tell women that they are going to hell because they choose to have an abortion. Obviously you disagree. Many people do. It all goes back to the importance of voting for people who share your values.

It is perfectly okay with me for you to do all the campaigning you want in order to take away womens right to choose, except when it threatens the safety and well being of others. As strongly as you work against a woman's right to choose, I'll be working just as strongly to make sure that they have that right.

As for your earlier comments about women getting pregnant so they can experience an abortion, that is right wing nutty. Please post the source or stop saying such a horrible thing. I just don't believe that people are that stupid.

[gadgetlady 4]

You don't own me. You can't get your hands on a baby that I am carrying. The baby can't survive without me as long as I'm carrying it.

I don't want to own you. So from your statement, then, you're against abortion after 21 or 22 weeks (viability)?

Just because you've decided that it is your job to raise my child doesn't mean that it is the right thing for any of us involved.

Huh? I don't think it's my job to raise your child. I think it's your job to raise your child, or to place your child with another family if you don't care to raise him.

There have always been abortions and there will always be abortions.

That doesn't make them right.

As for your earlier comments about women getting pregnant so they can experience an abortion, that is right wing nutty. Please post the source or stop saying such a horrible thing. I just don't believe that people are that stupid.

Well, it's going to be hard for me to find it because I read it in feminist literature about 20 years ago. Not in pro-life propaganda, but in a feminist book. I will look for it on the internet, though, because I'm sure you don't trust me that I really did read it.

BTW, why is it horrible? If abortion is a woman's right and not a bad action, why does it matter if people deliberately get pregnant and abort as a rite of passage?

[JeninCO 0]

gadgetlady,

:deadhorse:

We get it! You hate abortion. You hate feminism. You think the state should decide individual's rights.

Geez. Move on. The above post is ridiculous with you arguing with her point for point ~ no one wins here.

[gadgetlady 4]

We get it! You hate abortion. You hate feminism. You think the state should decide individual's rights.

Clearly you do NOT get it. I don't think the state should decide individual's rights. I think the state should PROTECT individual rights.

I am a libertarian at heart. I believe in freedom in many areas where others would cringe. But at the core of all of my beliefs is that everyone has the right to do whatever he or she wants with his or her body. And in the case of abortion, no one asked the baby.

If you don't want to hear what I have to say, you can ignore me or choose not to read this thread. That's your individual right.