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Wow! What a great thread. As one of the people who is consistently blamed for being non-supportive and stirring pots' date=' it is so nice to see and read this thread. I vote that it be stickied. It is hard for me to stay away from "enabling" threads because I feel my silence is just another means of enabling. Of course, it is seen otherwise and it is something I struggle with myself and my family. I am by no means perfect. I practice progress, not perfection. Awareness, honesty and willingness to change are keys for me.[/quote']

I too wonder about whether silence is consent, what we owe our fellow addicts, and at what cost to ourselves. I know the vets think no one hears you. But some of us do.

Some of us heard you in every threads where you were being attacked and called bullies. And some of us decided our path would be as yours was. Maybe the OP didn't hear you. But when you post, others read it and we make choices.

I think if you guys could post and know that you don't need to convince the OP and contest every point, but know that your posts are read, and they influence many, many of us, that maybe you'd do it and not feel it's futile.

PDXman, I'm a blunt person so I'll say it. I think what you say is very valuable. But in the way you express it, sometimes your caring doesn't come across. People need to hear what you have to say, and I think they'd hear you more if you could be just a teeeeny bit gentler--maybe start with a compliment and THEN blister their as$es :D

That may not be true to who you are but I don't see you as non-supportive. I think you tell it like it is, and I for one value that.

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PDXman, I'm a blunt person so I'll say it. I think what you say is very valuable. But in the way you express it, sometimes your caring doesn't come across. People need to hear what you have to say, and I think they'd hear you more if you could be just a teeeeny bit gentler--maybe start with a compliment and THEN blister their as$es :D

That may not be true to who you are but I don't see you as non-supportive. I think you tell it like it is, and I for one value that.

Oh, I know. I have recently started prefacing some of my posts of this nature stating that I realize I don't have the literary skills to be as tactful as some may like. Which is so true. I bounce in and out of the forum. I feel I have something to add, so I say it. Obviously I don't take the needed time to craft a response that is going to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy after. Sometimes, like the weekends, I may try to, but for the most part, I am straight forward. Call it like it is. Some people like this, some people don't. I believe the people with a chip on their shoulder read them cynically so they think I am being cynical. If I am being a smart ass, you'll know it. :)

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I too wonder about whether silence is consent' date=' what we owe our fellow addicts, and at what cost to ourselves. I know the vets think no one hears you. But some of us do. Some of us heard you in every threads where you were being attacked and called bullies. And some of us decided our path would be as yours was. Maybe the OP didn't hear you. But when you post, others read it and we make choices. I think if you guys could post and know that you don't need to convince the OP and contest every point, but know that your posts are read, and they influence many, many of us, that maybe you'd do it and not feel it's futile. PDXman, I'm a blunt person so I'll say it. I think what you say is very valuable. But in the way you express it, sometimes your caring doesn't come across. People need to hear what you have to say, and I think they'd hear you more if you could be just a teeeeny bit gentler--maybe start with a compliment and THEN blister their ases :D That may not be true to who you are but I don't see you as non-supportive. I think you tell it like it is, and I for one value that. [/quote']

I agree with what she said. I read most threads and have gotten what the vets have been saying, sometimes over and over, since I started coming here in July.

The op sometimes doesn't want to hear it, but many of us lurkers do hear your point.

I tend to follow more of what you vets say than anyone else.

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Um I'm pretty sure the OP is Laura-ven! :o

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Um I'm pretty sure the OP is Laura-ven! :o

No no, we're talking about other OPs who start threads that take a problematic turn.

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No no' date=' we're talking about other OPs who start threads that take a problematic turn.[/quote']

Yes, the ones that start with...I'm a week and a half post and I'm bored with full liquids, so I ate half a pizza.< /p>

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I think the point should not be lost that many people going thru this are fragile, scared, defensive, while a t the same time probably feeling hope and other'positive feelings too. Or maybe afraid to hope too much. Anyway, I remember a time when I found the "tone" on VST to feel a little harsh. Yeah the truth is a b***h but we can also be kind about it. I think we all try to be nice but put extra consideration for the person still figuring things out.

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I think "tone" can be in your face either way...

Those of us that try and say hey why did you get the sleeve if you're going to eat around it. Can at times sound... Harsh.. Face it reality is sometimes harsh.

But the tone is also set when a person starts with a provocative title like I'm a "rebel and I don't follow the plan so screw you"

I feels like they are acting out? Wanting to test boundaries maybe? Not necessarily with me or others...but maybe with theirselves?

Oh I guess that's why sometimes I say "you are young with the sleeve and your views around it will evolve.."

Edited by laura-ven

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Very thought provoking thread' date=' I agree. I actually had a nightmare the other night that I kept eating crap and slider foods and couldn't stop and failed my sleeve. I tell you, that dream was very vivid. I've lost weight many times, but it always came back. That's the future I fear. I also worry about people with 50 lbs. to lose that get mad when we explain it's not all roses. They don't want to hear it, and that's their prerogative, but it makes me sad.[/quote']

I start with this quote, but am gonna ramble a little here. My ugly food addiction monster is starting to rear her head. I'm pretty nervous and want to stay quiet. I don't want any of you to know this stuff about me.

When I first stopped drinking alcohol years ago, I had drunk dreams. I would wake in the morning thinking I had "slipped". I was terrified because these dreams seemed so real.

In the last number of years, prior to this sleeve journey, during various dieting attempts, I would have food dreams, like drunk dreams. I am a food addict.

This thread has me thinking about all of the funky tricks I do to myself to rationalize feeding my family, and feeding myself. I had the zucchini bake off in August, when I was on liquids post op. CRAZY! It's all in my freezer. And most of it is gluten free, still it's toxic for me and not part of my new plan.

I learned early in life to sneak food, to stash food, to claim food as "mine" and be pissed if it was gone and not replaced (by my young kids). My relationship with food and booze is not rational. I can only assume it never will be. I used food to cure my anger, loneliness and frustrations. I learned from my family that food is the most important thing in life, the center of all conversations. I adopted these values fully.

I'm a food addict! My name is Carolyn.

I used to eat alone, I used to eat all the time. I used to eat when everyone left home, then eat with them when they got home. Hunger rarely had anything to do with anything. At the end, the only end to my nuttiness would be a Migraine and 12 hours of barfing every 30 minutes or so. Then I would clean up for a while. A few days or a week.

With alcohol we refer to this as powerlessness, unmanageabilty, insanity. I could not quit the addictive food behavior, even after years of sobriety. It's the same, and it's really different.

I know I'm gonna have to reach out for help with this. I'm starting to have head hunger and I'm super afraid I'm going to head down the path of death. Deep breaths. Today is better than yesterday.

I really appreciate all of you who post so regularly and add such insight. I need you to NOT enable me. I want to LIVE! I want freedom! Eating crap and rationalizing that it might be ok, or rationalizing why I can't fit in time to walk, is just my BS. That's all it is. Don't let me believe it's anything else.

Love to all of you.

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Ok, I haven't been sleeved yet, but I see those types of posts constantly. Constantly. This DOES need to be "stickied" or something because this is something that happens every day. Sometimes I'll read that someone a month out is worried because they were able to eat half a jr burger and think they may have done something wrong and tons of others are saying "just get back on the wagon" and I guess I'm the only b***h reading it because all I'm thinking is WHY THE f**k ARE YOU EATING A BURGER???

I don't come here to be coddled. I want the truth. Black and white. If I EVER eat some crap I shouldn't or do something stupid that will endanger me or my chances at weight loss I hope someone slaps me upside the head, not tell me it's ok because "everyone" does it.

April

-end rant-

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Ok' date=' I haven't been sleeved yet, but I see those types of posts constantly. Constantly. This DOES need to be "stickied" or something because this is something that happens every day. Sometimes I'll read that someone a month out is worried because they were able to eat half a jr burger and think they may have done something wrong and tons of others are saying "just get back on the wagon" and I guess I'm the only b***h reading it because all I'm thinking is WHY THE f**k ARE YOU EATING A BURGER??? I don't come here to be coddled. I want the truth. Black and white. If I EVER eat some crap I shouldn't or do something stupid that will endanger me or my chances at weight loss I hope someone slaps me upside the head, not tell me it's ok because "everyone" does it. April -end rant-[/quote']

You know here's the thing. Before getting sleeved when I was on these crazy diets? I did the same dang thing. I would start a diet and then decide I knew better. That rule made no sense so I wasn't going to follow it. It drove my husband NUTS. But I am very persuasive with others and myself when I want to be and I can talk around both sides of an issue with great ease.

And I did that constantly. For sci if lovers, I'll remind you of Richard Feinman's quote: Man is not a rational animal, man is a rationalizing animal. And addicts are the BEST rationalizers around. We're professionals at justifying destructive behavior.

That's how we start to justify chocolate as a vegetable, right? :) and don't tell me you guys haven't done the same, we've ALL done it. That's part of how we failed at diets before.

It took me hitting bottom and feeling completely out of control, driven by an uncontrollable, all-controlling hunger, before I decided I was out of my depth and I needed help from a drastic and irreversible tool.

Some of us accepted we are not in control before we had the sleeve. Some do us didn't accept that and are STILL rationalizing our old ways.

You're right, many of us come here for the stark truth and are grateful we get it. What I haven't figured out is can we be of service to those who didn't accept that? Do our words and support help those people? Or do they have to get there on their own? I don't know.

Thoughts?

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You know here's the thing. Before getting sleeved when I was on these crazy diets? I did the same dang thing. I would start a diet and then decide I knew better. That rule made no sense so I wasn't going to follow it. It drove my husband NUTS. But I am very persuasive with others and myself when I want to be and I can talk around both sides of an issue with great ease. And I did that constantly. For sci if lovers' date=' I'll remind you of Richard Feinman's quote: Man is not a rational animal, man is a rationalizing animal. And addicts are the BEST rationalizers around. We're professionals at justifying destructive behavior. That's how we start to justify chocolate as a vegetable, right? <img src='http://www.bariatricpal.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> and don't tell me you guys haven't done the same, we've ALL done it. That's part of how we failed at diets before. It took me hitting bottom and feeling completely out of control, driven by an uncontrollable, all-controlling hunger, before I decided I was out of my depth and I needed help from a drastic and irreversible tool. Some of us accepted we are not in control before we had the sleeve. Some do us didn't accept that and are STILL rationalizing our old ways. You're right, many of us come here for the stark truth and are grateful we get it. What I haven't figured out is can we be of service to those who didn't accept that? Do our words and support help those people? Or do they have to get there on their own? I don't know. Thoughts?[/quote']

Maybe we all do have to get there on our own. I know it scares me, my out of control eating.

I'm on my final month of supervised dieting and my best friend already has the sleeve. She constantly eats junk and actually tries to get me to. I just tell her that I'm not putting that crap in my body anymore. She gets her feelings hurt, tells me I'm right and she's gonna eat right tomorrow. Tomorrow comes and she walks in with a ton of crap. Again. Every time I see her.

She knows this is why she stopped losing, and short of knocking the stuff out of her hands, I can't stop her. It scares me enough to realize this is not how I'm going to be. I got this way for a reason.

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What I haven't figured out is can we be of service to those who didn't accept that? Do our words and support help those people? Or do they have to get there on their own? I don't know. Thoughts?

Great question. The thing is....some of those people will never accept that they've hit bottom and need to surrender themselves to a plan that has been proven to work. Some may really not need to....and some really should. They ended up at WLS before that happened thinking it would prevent them from hitting bottom. Perhaps that's their path. It wasn't mine, I hit bottom like you and had to give myself over to something stronger that was proven to work. Clearly I couldn't do it on my own.

But asking those who are not ready to do so must feel very similar to asking an atheist to believe in god. It's just not going to happen.

So my point is we all can be of help to each other, but a big factor to keep in mind has to be that we each have our own way, and it's not going to be everyone else's way.... As hard as that is for me to accept.

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Oh man. This is a great post. For a while I had to take a much needed break (as I'm sure you remember) because I was getting so upset with the enabling that was going on that I was being inapropriate in how I was dealing with what I was seeing.

So this is my second round of weight loss surgery, and I am getting very close to a huge goal of mine, much closer than I ever been before and its largely because I try as much as I can to be harder on myself than I have ever been. I think it's healthy to have limits, boundaries on what we find personally acceptable. For me, I had to draw some lines in the sand when people I used to binge eat with (close friends) and something miraculous happened. We fell off for about a year in part because of my issues with food, and more specifically how we were eating when we were together and a year later when we touched base and reconnected we BOTH benefited. She had lost something like 75 pounds and I was down 60 after my surgery, and we no longer have these issues.

It's a little off topic but it sort of resonates with me and the whole enabling vs NOT allowing that sort of thing.

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THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!!! I came to this forum, because I REALLY want to and am ready to make these drastic changes. Like many of you I'm a food addict. I'm right at the point that I have looked at myself and finally have seen the light. I am realizing how much food has control over my life and how much time I have wasted on food, in every imaginable way possible. I have thought about wls for several years. I am so grateful I have not taken the plunge in the past and thought it would all work it self out once the surgery was in place. I was smarter than that. I really let myself figure things out. Two things have happened over the last 6 years of contemplating whether or not I should have this wls. First I have continued to gain, secondly I have not taken the necessary measures to make this happen on my own. I am 37 y/o 254.5 lbs 5'3 woman, who is severely depressed due to her weight and I have never been able to make "it" happen. I have chosen to have wls, not to see what I can still eat or not eat..but to see what it's gonna feel like and look like once I start living again!!! I have a goal to be able to run a marathon, to do a Spartan race, to kayak. If I never have a cupcake again I don't f-ing care I want to LIVE!!! I have set up therapy for the first time in my life. I feel like I will need some help saying goodbye to an old friend, the girl who got me here to 254, I feel like that girl needs to be honored , heard and respected that she got me this far in life but to also say goodbye to her...she can't go with me on my new adventure, she has served her purpose in my life, although it may sound crazy, I feel like i'm at a crossroads of saying goodbye to the old girl while stepping forward to grab the hand of the new girl. I am so grateful for all those that have taken the time to post in this thread. So much of what all of you has said rang true for me. I know I have a long journey ahead of me. But I know I must take a new path. I'm in need of a revival within my self;)The post's here were so thought provoking and honestly the best one I've read to date. Again thanks. I get so much from the vets! Please stay around there are those like me that truly value your points of view who rely on those that have gone before us and are still making it work.

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