Someone recently passed this article on to me, which I posted on another board. It was promptly removed. So sad . . .

Frightening News from France

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently

not being reported as it should. To give you an idea

of what's going on in France where there are now

between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews,

here is an email that came from a Jew living in

France. Please read! Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?

"I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to

everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back

and do nothing." Nowhere have the flames of

anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France:

Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set

on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center

was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and

Marseilles; so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently.

A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with

Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred

Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" were

painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a

Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The

bus that takes Jewish children to school in

Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen

10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past

30 days. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been

defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to the gas

chambers" and "Death to the Jews."

A gunman opened fire on a Kosher butcher's shop

(and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse , France;

a Jewish couple in their 20s were beaten up by five

men in Villeurbanne , France . The woman was

pregnant; a Jewish school was broken into and

vandalized in Sarcelles , France . This was just in

the past week.

So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a

friend, or merely a person with the capacity and

desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do,

at least, these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let

yourself become deluded into thinking that this is

no t your fight. I remind you of what Pastor

Neimoller said in World War II: "First they came for

the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I

wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and

I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they

came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up,

because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one left to speak up

for me".

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the

Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and,

unlike them, France exports more than just oil and

hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes.

Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott

their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If

we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and,

whatever else we may know about the French, we most

certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a

hurricane in the face of well directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends,

and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of

good conscience that you know and let them know

that you and the people that you care about need

their help. The number one best selling book in

France is "September 11: The Frightening Fraud,"

which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon."

Let me use an analogy to answer you! You are a parent! You conceive a child knowing that the child will do wrong, get into trouble, get sick and eventually die. Yet you still create this child, wanting only the best for your child.

I've always like the God as our Father image. However, when I conceive a child, I have limited control(if any) over what characteristics he/she will be born with. God OTHO could have given us, His creations, any charactistics He choose, He had total creative control so to speak.

God is our Father and created us with foreknowledge of what we would do, because He wanted us to worship Him and enjoy fellowship with Him. Could he have created us never to have the choice to sin and disobey? Yes, He could have, but how would that glorify Him if we had no choice in how we acted? It would be like having a robot that was programed to do only what you wanted, completely devoid of love and respect for you. God didn't create robots, He created us in His spiritual image to worship, obey and fellowship with Him.

It sounds like you are saying God created us imperfect and thus subject to suffereing so that we would worship Him in the way He wants, to provide Him with glory? Hum.

No, not at all! He created us perfect; made in His image. We became imperfect after man disobeyed and sinned. We know our children will be imperfect but we create them with the ability to choose between ring and wrong. They have a choice.

I've always like the God as our Father image. However, when I conceive a child, I have limited control(if any) over what characteristics he/she will be born with. God OTHO could have given us, His creations, any charactistics He choose, He had total creative control so to speak.

It sounds like you are saying God created us imperfect and thus subject to suffereing so that we would worship Him in the way He wants, to provide Him with glory? Hum.

No, not at all! He created us perfect; made in His image. We became imperfect after man disobeyed and sinned. We know our children will be imperfect but we create them with the ability to choose between ring and wrong. They have a choice.

So...he created Adam and Eve...and they were perfect and we were perfect and then Adam and Eve sinned and now we DESERVE to get AIDS and little children DESERVE cancer because Adam and Eve sinned...just the way God knew they would when he created them..so, the little kids never stood a chance, right?

You have a wonderful way of twisting things! He created Adam perfect. His whole creation was perfect. Man used his free will to disobey God and sin entered into God's perfect creation and were made imperfect.

If you had some horrible disease, had a child and it was passed on to the child, the child has to live with it weather he deserved it or not. The world and all that live in it are contaminated by sin and we live the consequences of that sin.

God, however, provided a way out . . . through Jesus! The "little kids" and us do stand a chance because of what Jesus did. In fact it's more that a chance, it's a certainty to those who embrace the Messiah.

God is not the bad guy here! We are! Of course, if you are perfect and have never sinned, then you would never get sick and die! The fact of the matter is, we have ALL SINNED, so we are living the consequesces. You do know that you have sinned, don't you!!

So...he created Adam and Eve...and they were perfect and we were perfect and then Adam and Eve sinned and now we DESERVE to get AIDS and little children DESERVE cancer because Adam and Eve sinned...just the way God knew they would when he created them..so, the little kids never stood a chance, right?

No, not at all! He created us perfect; made in His image. We became imperfect after man disobeyed and sinned. We know our children will be imperfect but we create them with the ability to choose between ring and wrong. They have a choice.

But how can you say we were created perfect if we had the cabability to disobey and sin? If I could have had my niece born perfect, so that she would never make a mistake and get hurt or sick, I might have made that happen.

For a bit of a disclaimer here, I don’t pretend to have the understanding needed to explain God and His choices. Some of it doesn’t, and won’t, make sense to me. I can live with that, my faith is beyond what I can explain. I think of God as a Father. And I accept that kids don’t understand everything their parents do, why they do it. So that’s how I feel.

I am always curious to hear what other people think. Their opinions on the things I have questions about. I'm finding this a very interesting conversation.

If you had some horrible disease, had a child and it was passed on to the child, the child has to live with it weather he deserved it or not. The world and all that live in it are contaminated by sin and we live the consequences of that sin.

But I wouldn't pass it on if I had the choice not to, if I knew during creation of that child I could remove that disease, why wouldn't I?

God is not the bad guy here! We are!

Ah, but the catch is that God created the game and set up the rules. We then have to play by them.

Of course, if you are perfect and have never sinned, then you would never get sick and die!

Seems to contradict:

The world and all that live in it are contaminated by sin and we live the consequences of that sin.

So sin is what... contagious? (Not twisting, asking for clarification).

A fetus has a disease in utero, that was not passed directly from the mother. We'll call it "spontaneous" disease. It happens all the time. Genetic defects are one of the most likely causes. That fetus has never sinned. It hasn't even breathed. Yet it is sentenced to death. Because of what? It's mother or father's sins? Adam's?

You say someone who has never sinned would never get sick and die. But it happenes every day.

You have a wonderful way of twisting things! He created Adam perfect. His whole creation was perfect. Man used his free will to disobey God and sin entered into God's perfect creation and were made imperfect.

If you had some horrible disease, had a child and it was passed on to the child, the child has to live with it weather he deserved it or not. The world and all that live in it are contaminated by sin and we live the consequences of that sin.

God, however, provided a way out . . . through Jesus! The "little kids" and us do stand a chance because of what Jesus did. In fact it's more that a chance, it's a certainty to those who embrace the Messiah.

God is not the bad guy here! We are! Of course, if you are perfect and have never sinned, then you would never get sick and die! The fact of the matter is, we have ALL SINNED, so we are living the consequesces. You do know that you have sinned, don't you!!

So, man's free will was part of a perfect creation...even though the one creating it knew that man's exercise of free will would cause pain and suffering even to the most innocent?

Not too perfect a plan, then, was it? You can't have it both ways.

Here's a simpler explanation and one that DOES make sense. There is no God. Prayer is superstition. Man, primitive man, at that, created Gods to explain things he couldn't understand. People cling to a belief in the supernatural to help explain the things they can't understand and because they cannot deal with the notion that they have no control and that no one is in charge of what happens and when it's over, it's over.

Perfection in the biblical sense means without sin or corruption. Adam was created without sin or corruption . . . perfect in every way. Being perfect, or sinless, does not mean that Adam did not have the capcity to sin. Only that he was tainted by it until he choose to sin.

Perfection does not mean without having free choice. The Bible tells us that Saten was created without sin, but because of pride, rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven.

If you had the ability to make your niece be born without the chance of ever making a mistake or doing something wrong, then how would that be a testimony to her parents ability to raise her and nurture her. She would need no teaching, education, moral foundation, etc. She would be nothing more that a robot, a human figure without the ability to make decisions and choices. God, in His wisdom, chose not to make us that way. I don't knbow all the reasons why He did that because I don't know th whole mind of God, I just know that He did!!

Like you, I don't pretend to know everything about God. Anyone who tells you he does is a liar!

But how can you say we were created perfect if we had the cabability to disobey and sin? If I could have had my niece born perfect, so that she would never make a mistake and get hurt or sick, I might have made that happen.

For a bit of a disclaimer here, I don’t pretend to have the understanding needed to explain God and His choices. Some of it doesn’t, and won’t, make sense to me. I can live with that, my faith is beyond what I can explain. I think of God as a Father. And I accept that kids don’t understand everything their parents do, why they do it. So that’s how I feel.

I am always curious to hear what other people think. Their opinions on the things I have questions about. I'm finding this a very interesting conversation.

If you had the ability to make your niece be born without the chance of ever making a mistake or doing something wrong, then how would that be a testimony to her parents ability to raise her and nurture her.

So I'm back to the idea that God made us, knowing the choices we'd make and the suffereing it would lead to, for His own Glory? Hum, not sure about that one.

Alexandra- I agree, and thanks for the comment directed my way.

Have you noticed that lisah25 has been one of the "softest spoken" people here? She just keeps her cool, enjoys the discussion, and keeps asking questions - very relevant questions. I'm proud of you lisah25. You may not know that you have support here, but you certainly do.

Ron: I am glad that we have achieved peace between us, right here on earth.

Thanks BJean! It's nice to know.

I think this thread has taken a nice turn, I like that we can all get along and have discussions and still disagree.

God did not create us to make wrong choices and to suffer and is not glorified by our sin. That was never said. It is something you are reading into it.

We were made to make good choices and live in a paradise existance with Him. Yes he foreknew, but it was still up to us to make the choice. Just as it is up to you to accept or reject Him now.

God receives the glory when we accept His free gift of salvation and make GOOD choices and attempt to lead holy lives.

I have been repeating this over and over again, but you apparently are not grasping it.

So I'm back to the idea that God made us, knowing the choices we'd make and the suffereing it would lead to, for His own Glory? Hum, not sure about that one.

As do I!! God bless!

Thanks BJean! It's nice to know.

I think this thread has taken a nice turn, I like that we can all get along and have discussions and still disagree.

God did not create us to make wrong choices and to suffer and is not glorified by our sin. That was never said. It is something you are reading into it.

He may not have wanted us to make wrong choices, but He made us knowing we were going to. I'm not sure there is a significant difference there. He could have said "Hey, wait a minute. If I go ahead like this, my beloved creations will sin and suffer. Maybe I'd better rethink this part"

What I mean by my Glory comments is this. You have said that we Glorify God when we choose to turn away from sin and worship him, correct? Let me ask this then, for whose benefit is that Glory?