The Biblical Case for Pro-Choice & Stem Cell Research

[foodstampchamp 3]

I wonder if god can create man and earth and pretty much everything in history why he cannot make sure people (including little kids) don't get terminally ill diseases that there is no cure for. Guess he is too busy damning 9 year olds (and older) to hell if they deserve it. Gotta have your priorities I guess.:biggrin1:

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I have a question - why can't they use miscarried fetus' instead of aborted?

The stem cells may have matured into cells with dedicated jobs by that time. But I am not really sure.

Going all the way back to the first page when T.O.M quoted scripture - very interesting but you are talking about first man - God's first creation. Do you not think that God knows you until you take that first breath of air?

Thats my opinion. Respect it or not.

I respect your opinion, whether I agree or not, at least you are thinking rather than repeating dogma handed down by some person with a title.

You asked if God knows the fetus before it is born. I do not know if he does, but if he does, he should also know that the fetus was going to be aborted or suffer a miscarriage, so why would he waste a soul on that fetus?

I think God is way too intelligent to put souls into fetuses or embryos that will never mature to the point of taking a breath of air, so that is why my quote from Genesis made so much sense to me. I am sorry if it does not ring true to you. But I hope you will respect my opinion whether you disagree or agree.

[Wheetsin 714]

I wonder if god can create man and earth and pretty much everything in history why he cannot make sure people (including little kids) don't get terminally ill diseases that there is no cure for.

A common rebuttal you'll hear to that is "God does not give anyone more than he can handle" (huh?) or "Because there also has to be death" or "Because God has something planned for that child, and needed him/her to learn the lesson of a hard/diseased/whatever life" or...

That's why debates based in theology are more difficult from our perspective. In my opinion. :scared: (I've posted this before, so I'm just giving the short version). One side has some unseen, unknown, unproven "magical" entity that can do everything and anything imaginable. Kind of like someone with every superpower ever conceived of, all rolled into one. The other side has to try and rationalize against that, which to us is "common sense", but when you believe in the entity, it's all the answer you need - apparently. We tend to see things in terms of the Epicurean riddle, while those with religious faith tend to see things in terms of Because it's god.

[StephC 0]

I believe God would "waste" a soul on a fetus and it wasn't actually a question I needed answered. I feel assured of the answer. I believe we have a soul at the moment of conception.

Again citing the fact that Adam was the only being that needed the breath of God breathed in him. The fetus is getting oxygen through the umbilical cord from the moment it attaches itself to the wall of the uterus, not only oxygen but food, nutrients, life, from that umbilical cord. Thus the reason why when we pull the child from the mother it dies. Only a living being can die.

I respect your opinion but stand firm on mine.

[Wheetsin 714]

I believe we have a soul at the moment of conception.

Then do you believe that either a) the sperm carries the soul, :scared: the soul is dormant in the egg until "awakened" by the sperm's penetration, or c) something else?

Not looking to debate your beliefs, not at all, just curious what you believe about this. I've had lots of conversations around this particular topic, and personal beliefs vary widely, even within the same religion.

[Sunta 4]

To the people who believe in Adam and Eve literally: where did Cain's wife come from?

I can never get an answer to that question.

Secondly, where did people of other races come from?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I believe God would "waste" a soul on a fetus and it wasn't actually a question I needed answered. I feel assured of the answer. I believe we have a soul at the moment of conception.

Do you have a Biblical Verse number?

If God does give a soul to a fetus at conception, and since I doubt that God would be so cruel as to send the fetus to Hell based on the actions of its mother and abortion doctor, then an abortion is less risky for the soul than giving birth. I could guarantee my "child's" soul going to Heaven by aborting it as a fetus. Giving birth to it in this cruel world only gives it a 50-50 chance.

Again citing the fact that Adam was the only being that needed the breath of God breathed in him. The fetus is getting oxygen through the umbilical cord from the moment it attaches itself to the wall of the uterus' date=' not only oxygen but food, nutrients, life, from that umbilical cord. Thus the reason why when we pull the child from the mother it dies. Only a living being can die.[/quote']And that's why I do not consider an abortion to be murder, because I do not consider the fetus to be a living human being, but rather a potential human being.

[StephC 0]

A common rebuttal you'll hear to that is "God does not give anyone more than he can handle" (huh?) or "Because there also has to be death" or "Because God has something planned for that child, and needed him/her to learn the lesson of a hard/diseased/whatever life" or...

My answer to that is unfortunately we live on earth, not heaven. There is sickness, diasease, pain, suffering and all the other crap that comes with earth. Why did God allow all of that? because he gave man free will. We could go back and forth whether you believe in God or not but I do believe with my whole being that not only is there a God but I am a child of God. You can say that it may be foolish but hey I'll take the chance. I'd much rather live this life believing in a God that isn't then not believing in one that is!

I had a sweet little grand neice that died from a childhood cancer. It was horrible to watch her suffer. She was 2 when she was diagnosed and 4 when she passed and believing there is a heaven is the only hope left for her parents that someday they will be reunited with her. Was it fair that a 20 y/o girl should have to deal with this type of anguish? Was it fair that a baby that was loved and wanted and cared for should die while around the world others who are neglected, abused and unwanted should live. No its not fair but it is life.

2Timothy 1:10-12 But it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am concinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted him for that day.

I'm sorry this is so long but just one more thing. Sin - I think so many people are confused with sin. God didn't say don't do this because I said so and its sin. He said my child if you do these things I call sin it will bring you pain, anguish, grief. If you obey my laws and don't sin you will save yourself from so much heartache and pain.

The joy of the Lord is my strength.

[StephC 0]

yes - can back it up with scripture but not now - now its supper time and my daughter needs her letter sewn back on her lettermans jacket. I'll return for more another time.

[lisah25 3]

My answer to that is unfortunately we live on earth, not heaven. There is sickness, diasease, pain, suffering and all the other crap that comes with earth. Why did God allow all of that? because he gave man free will.

I'm sorry this is so long but just one more thing. Sin - I think so many people are confused with sin. God didn't say don't do this because I said so and its sin. He said my child if you do these things I call sin it will bring you pain, anguish, grief. If you obey my laws and don't sin you will save yourself from so much heartache and pain.

The joy of the Lord is my strength.

I don't understand the connection you see between free will and a 2 year old dying of cancer?

I pretty much agree about sin. I think the rules are there for our benefit rather just being some cosmic game of Simon Says.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I don't understand the connection you see between free will and a 2 year old dying of cancer?

I pretty much agree about sin. I think the rules are there for our benefit rather just being some cosmic game of Simon Says.

I am having a lot of problem with the contradictory things I hear about "Free Will".

In "Purpose Driving Life", Rick Warren says that God knew what my DNA would be before he created Adam, before he created Lucifer, the Angels, or Heaven and Earth.

OK, so did my mother and father have free will?

Later in the book, Reverend Warren says that God knows everything I am ever going to do or say and has known it from the beginning. Doesn't sound like I have much free will.

While we were riding the elevator to my doctor's office in this large medical building, one of the nurses I know, asked me how I liked "Purpose Driving Life" which I carried around to read in order to help pass time in the waiting room, at that time and I said “I think it is stupid”. She said that she had liked it. I reminded her of the part where Reverend Warren says that God knows everything we are ever going to do or say and said, "If I tell you that you are stupid, don't blame it on me, blame it on God", since he knew I was going to say it thousands of years ago.

No, I didn't call her stupid, but what happened to my free will? How will I earn my way into Heaven if everything was decided for me thousands of years ago? Whether or not I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour was determined for me thousands of years ago.

This approach to life makes God sound like a puppet master who owns 6 billion puppets, has written the script for each one of them and plays with all of them at the same time. He must be bored out of his mind, since he already knows how it ends. Yes, that makes him a mighty God, but it makes him a very bored God, too. Maybe God does not want to be bored and maybe he wants to be able to see a surprise ending and maybe we have free will, and Rick Warren is wrong. I think God is powerful enough to end boredom.

Don't you?

[lisah25 3]

In "Purpose Driving Life", Rick Warren says that God knew what my DNA would be before he created Adam, before he created Lucifer, the Angels, or Heaven and Earth.

Don't you?

I'm not familiar with that book, honestly I find a lot of those books too...something...I can't find a word for.

As far as free will and God being all knowing, I think that God knowing what we will do isn't the same as not letting us do it, if that makes any sense. He doesn't make us make a given choice, He just knows what we will chose to do.

I've never really thought about God getting bored before.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

As far as free will and God being all knowing, I think that God knowing what we will do isn't the same as not letting us do it, if that makes any sense. He doesn't make us make a given choice, He just knows what we will chose to do.

Please don't be insulted, but that was double-talk.

If he knows we are going to say it, we have no choice but to say it.

[lisah25 3]

Please don't be insulted, but that was double-talk.

If he knows we are going to say it, we have no choice but to say it.

I just don't see it that way. Maybe I'm having a dense day explaining myself.

OK, I offer my niece chocolate or vanilla ice cream. I know from experience she'll take chocolate. Does my knowledge of that affect her choice? (OK, it's not a great example)

[Wheetsin 714]

TOM, I have not read that book but I have heard and read about it (afterall, I live in the NE buckle of the bible belt), and I have read about him. I've tried but there are some books I just can't even force myself through, like Left Behind and Lord of the Rings. Following Warren's rationale - correct me if I'm wrong - god created atheists to be atheists. They must serve some purpose in present state. Maybe just practice fodder for all the determined converters out there, who knows. We were pre-determined to be this way, and it has been our fate since before Pangea broke apart. Am I accurate?

By Warren's rationale, one thing god did to alleviate his boredom was create millions upon millions of pre-arranged marriages. Even though he doesn't (I don't believe) state it that way. And therefore "love" is nothing other than a planted signal that this is the person we are supposed to be with. Like a homing beacon. Kind of takes the romance out of it, eh? Lots of people like to think of "love" as a magical event, and not the radar beeping that you've found your target. Love and attraction as we think of it ceases, and necessarily have to be a product of god's determination, because if your DNA chain was determined LONG ago, then so were your parents -- and even the exact moment of your conception.

So perhaps ED is a way of saying "you're done", in which case Viagra will really piss it off. :heh: