This a simple poll. I am not trying to start any kind of philosophical debate here.

There is no need to qualify you answer with a comment. I don't expect anyone to be converted here.

I have tried to keep this short and inoffensive. If you are offended, get therapy immediately.

patty: People have overtaken land everywhere on this earth. It's our history. You can't blame "Christians" for this. The blame is on "people".

You're the one who says going to war is fine with God.

Where in the Bible does it say that invading a land and killing it's native inhabitants for the purpose of taking their natural resources, is okay? That's what we did in Iraq and you've defended that action. And the guys who set the whole thing up claim to be good Christians and even Bush claimed he was there doing that job because God ordained it.

It is always okay to defend oneself. If someone threatens to kill you or others, it is your duty to defend yourself and protect others from death as well.

Hey you've been hiding out under that rock again. What we did in Iraq had nothing whatever to do with defending ourselves. And nobody who is aware of what we did believes that defending ourselves was Bush and Cheney's motive.

We dropped bombs on innocent people. There were some bad guys there that were gumming up the works for America - meaning they controlled things that we wanted and we needed them out of the way - so we killed people and we left a nation in chaos because some of us thought we deserved to get what we wanted. We killed innocent people for greed.

There is no way that God would endorse our actions in Iraq. And you shouldn't either.

Hey you've been hiding out under that rock again. What we did in Iraq had nothing whatever to do with defending ourselves. And nobody who is aware of what we did believes that defending ourselves was Bush and Cheney's motive.

We dropped bombs on innocent people. There were some bad guys there that were gumming up the works for America - meaning they controlled things that we wanted and we needed them out of the way - so we killed people and we left a nation in chaos because some of us thought we deserved to get what we wanted. We killed innocent people for greed.

There is no way that God would endorse our actions in Iraq. And you shouldn't either.

Christians have struggled with the issue of war for centuries. Before Jesus arrived on the scene, all good people wrestled with war and the existence of evil. Thankfully, the bible is not silent on the subject.

One of God's primary attributes is peace. Isaiah said the Messiah would bear these names: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). God longs for all people to live in peace. That is how He created the universe – in total peace and harmony.

Christians are to be people of peace.

One of the most notable biblical commands to live in peace is in Romans 12:18: "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

With the Bible clear on our responsibility to live peaceably, it seems that there would be no reason to ever go to war. However, if one depends on the Bible as a guidepost for living, it is readily apparent that war is sometimes a necessary option. In fact, just as there are numerous references to peace in the Bible, there are frequent references to God-ordained war.

Many present-day pacifists hold Jesus as their example for unvarying peace. But they ignore the full revelation concerning Jesus pictured in the book of Revelation 19, where He is depicted bearing a "sharp sword" and smiting nations, ruling them with "a rod of Iron."

Moreover, the Song of Victory in Exodus 15 hails God as a God of war: "… The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name." And, there is indeed a time for war.

God actually strengthened individuals for war, including Moses, Joshua and many of the Old Testament judges who demonstrated great faith in battle. And God destroyed many armies challenging the Israelites. I Chronicles 14:15 describes God striking down the Philistines.

God even gives counsel to be wise in war. Proverbs 20:18: "Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war."

Today, America continues to face the horrible realities of our fallen world. Suicide bombings and terrorist actions are shown on Tv daily. It is apparent that our God-authored freedoms must be defended.

Throughout the book of Judges, God calls the Israelites to go to war against the Midianites and Philistines. Why? Because these nations were trying to conquer Israel, and God's people were called to defend themselves.

President Bush declared war in Iraq to defend innocent people. This is a worthy pursuit. In fact, Proverbs 21:15 tells us: "It is joy to the just to do judgement: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity."

One of the primary purposes of the church is to stop the spread of evil, even at the cost of human lives. If we do not stop the spread of evil, many innocent lives will be lost and the kingdom of God suffers.

You might ask "Doesn't the sixth commandment say, 'Thou shalt not kill?'"

Actually, no; it says: "Thou shalt not commit murder."

There is a difference between killing and murdering. In fact, many times God commanded capital punishment for those who break the law.

We continue to live in violent times. The Bible tells us war will be a reality until Christ returns. And when the time is right, Jesus will indeed come again, ending all wars. Until that time, however, Christians must live as Galatians 6:2 instructs: "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

Oh, so now war is not just to defend ourselves, it is also to protect the innocent in another country. It seems like the neocons keep trying to come up with new justifications for bush's atrocities.

There are plenty of innocent people living under a sadistic dictator all over the world. It is not the job of the United States, with the use of my tax dollars, to invade these countries to "protect the innocent". If missionaries, the red cross, amnesty international, etc.. want to go into these countries to try to save the innocents and do humanitarian work, that is one thing. But I don't want my government to be the world's policeman and use my tax dollars or put our soldiers in harm's way just because there are bad guys out there. That is not my government's job.

North Korea is living under a cruel dictator. Its people are starving. Why haven't we invaded North Korea (one of the 3 of bush's axis of evil)? Uh, because they have the world's 5th largest army and nuclear weapons.

bush didn't invade Iraq for WMD's or to save the innocents. He invaded because cheney wanted big, cushy, no-bid government contracts for his halliburton pals, and their oil and bush wanted to one-up his daddy.

Too bad they both put this country into a big financial debt to do so not to mention all the soldiers who died for this.

That's exactly right, Cleo's.

Furthermore, it is wrong to use scripture to justify what was done during the Bush administration. If we were so concerned about saving the Iraqi people from the evil dictator there, why did we kill so many innocents? And what of the American lives that were sacrificed? There is nothing just about that war and nothing good has come of it. In fact, our enemies have been strengthened by it.

You can't stem the acts of terrorism commmitted by one group of people by bombing a completely different group of people. It makes no sense. And it certainly does not make sense to take scripture out of context and apply it to that war to proclaim that God would sanctify the atrocious actions committed by our country.

And before you claim that we were all for it in the beginning again patty, I was never, ever, not even for one second in favor of our bombing Iraq. I was not fooled and there were many, many, many other Americans who were never fooled by the disinformation that was used to influence congress and Americans. We wept the night we watched what our president commanded our military to do to that country. We wept when he coined the phrase "shock and awe." We continue to weep for our fallen military men and women who have given their lives on that foreign soil just as we weep for those who gave their lives in Vietnam.

We know that there are times that evil men make war necessary and we will gladly take up arms to defend our country. But when the evil has taken hold of our leaders, we must protest and we must not follow them into the abyss.

[quote}But when the evil has taken hold of our leaders, we must protest and we must not follow them into the abyss.

You have a "leader" at this very moment who is alowing war that you feel is unnecessary. I hear no griping about him.

That's exactly right, Cleo's.

Furthermore, it is wrong to use scripture to justify what was done during the Bush administration. If we were so concerned about saving the Iraqi people from the evil dictator there, why did we kill so many innocents? And what of the American lives that were sacrificed? There is nothing just about that war and nothing good has come of it. In fact, our enemies have been strengthened by it.

You can't stem the acts of terrorism commmitted by one group of people by bombing a completely different group of people. It makes no sense. And it certainly does not make sense to take scripture out of context and apply it to that war to proclaim that God would sanctify the atrocious actions committed by our country.

You are right, BJean. And I am thankful that our leader, Pres. Obama is doing the responsible thing and drawing down the war in Iraq. We only have 50,000 troops left there. Only the uninformed and naive would expect all the soldiers to come home at once. That would be logistically impossible as well as irresponsible.

Pres. Obama's plan is to have the troops start coming home from Afghanistan next summer. Again, it will have to be done responsibly.

These two wars are just two of the messes bush left Pres. Obama that he has to now clean up. And even with all the messes he has had to clean up, Pres. Obama has accomplished so much.

Just imagine all the great things he could have done had he been left a surplus and good economy like bush was. The unemployment rate would be 4%. We could concentrate on clean energy, education, etc... but the bush messes have consumed all of our nation's time and energy.

patty: "You have a "leader" at this very moment who is alowing war that you feel is unnecessary. I hear no griping about him."

The sitting president is not lying to me. He hasn't misrepresented anything. He has been open and forthright about what he thinks is best for this country. I haven't always agreed with his plans but I respect him for telling us what he believes is the right thing to do for America.

My only complaint about this president is that he has been trying too hard to work with the opposition party. They refuse to work with him and he's wasting precious time.

And if it were up to me, I would bring all the troops home from Afghanistan immediately - whether it seemed prudent or not. I would cancel all the contracts that we've made with Blackwater and other contractors who are working for us and being paid by our government in Iraq. I would allow our military to do the work that needs to be done there and then I'd bring them home as soon as possible.

I would get rid of the Bush tax breaks for the wealthy and I would incentivize corporations to do business in the United States utilizing American employees and American resources.

And I would continue to work toward coming up with a great plan for universal health care in the United States.

The list is much longer, but you get the idea.

Christians have struggled with the issue of war for centuries. Before Jesus arrived on the scene, all good people wrestled with war and the existence of evil. Thankfully, the bible is not silent on the subject.

One of God's primary attributes is peace. Isaiah said the Messiah would bear these names: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). God longs for all people to live in peace. That is how He created the universe – in total peace and harmony.

Christians are to be people of peace.

One of the most notable biblical commands to live in peace is in Romans 12:18: "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

With the Bible clear on our responsibility to live peaceably, it seems that there would be no reason to ever go to war. However, if one depends on the Bible as a guidepost for living, it is readily apparent that war is sometimes a necessary option. In fact, just as there are numerous references to peace in the Bible, there are frequent references to God-ordained war.

Many present-day pacifists hold Jesus as their example for unvarying peace. But they ignore the full revelation concerning Jesus pictured in the book of Revelation 19, where He is depicted bearing a "sharp sword" and smiting nations, ruling them with "a rod of iron."

Moreover, the Song of Victory in Exodus 15 hails God as a God of war: "… The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name." And, there is indeed a time for war.

God actually strengthened individuals for war, including Moses, Joshua and many of the Old Testament judges who demonstrated great faith in battle. And God destroyed many armies challenging the Israelites. I Chronicles 14:15 describes God striking down the Philistines.

God even gives counsel to be wise in war. Proverbs 20:18: "Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war."

Today, America continues to face the horrible realities of our fallen world. Suicide bombings and terrorist actions are shown on Tv daily. It is apparent that our God-authored freedoms must be defended.

Throughout the book of Judges, God calls the Israelites to go to war against the Midianites and Philistines. Why? Because these nations were trying to conquer Israel, and God's people were called to defend themselves.

President Bush declared war in Iraq to defend innocent people. This is a worthy pursuit. In fact, Proverbs 21:15 tells us: "It is joy to the just to do judgement: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity."

One of the primary purposes of the church is to stop the spread of evil, even at the cost of human lives. If we do not stop the spread of evil, many innocent lives will be lost and the kingdom of God suffers.

You might ask "Doesn't the sixth commandment say, 'Thou shalt not kill?'"

Actually, no; it says: "Thou shalt not commit murder."

There is a difference between killing and murdering. In fact, many times God commanded capital punishment for those who break the law.

We continue to live in violent times. The Bible tells us war will be a reality until Christ returns. And when the time is right, Jesus will indeed come again, ending all wars. Until that time, however, Christians must live as Galatians 6:2 instructs: "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

Where it says "Bear ye one anothers burdens", dont you call those handouts? Remember you basically said, "you take care of yours, Ill take care of mine"! Wow, you are such a hypocrit! It sounds to me like it says to help others to fullfill the law of Christ.

Oh, so now war is not just to defend ourselves, it is also to protect the innocent in another country. It seems like the neocons keep trying to come up with new justifications for bush's atrocities.

There are plenty of innocent people living under a sadistic dictator all over the world. It is not the job of the United States, with the use of my tax dollars, to invade these countries to "protect the innocent". If missionaries, the red cross, amnesty international, etc.. want to go into these countries to try to save the innocents and do humanitarian work, that is one thing. But I don't want my government to be the world's policeman and use my tax dollars or put our soldiers in harm's way just because there are bad guys out there. That is not my government's job.

North Korea is living under a cruel dictator. Its people are starving. Why haven't we invaded North Korea (one of the 3 of bush's axis of evil)? Uh, because they have the world's 5th largest army and nuclear weapons.

bush didn't invade Iraq for WMD's or to save the innocents. He invaded because cheney wanted big, cushy, no-bid government contracts for his halliburton pals, and their oil and bush wanted to one-up his daddy.

Too bad they both put this country into a big financial debt to do so not to mention all the soldiers who died for this.

Its to protect innocent people when theres oil money to be had!

btrieger's original post:

This a simple poll. I am not trying to start any kind of philosophical debate here.

There is no need to qualify you answer with a comment. I don't expect anyone to be converted here.

I have tried to keep this short and inoffensive. If you are offended, get therapy immediately.

Thank goodness no one paid any attention to instructions. This is a fascinating discussion as it sprawls over all available topics and I appreciate the input from everyone.

Now back to our regularly scheduled dissent, hue and outcry.

Where it says "Bear ye one anothers burdens", dont you call those handouts? Remember you basically said, "you take care of yours, Ill take care of mine"! Wow, you are such a hypocrit! It sounds to me like it says to help others to fullfill the law of Christ.

It means to help carry their burdens, not do it for them. I have consistantly said that I am not against the government giving a hand up to people to help those who trulty need it because of disabilities or mental imparities or other reasons. It is when they give a hand out to those who don't need it or can pay for it themselves that I have a problem with. People will take what is there for free. I know I would. If they're going to give it away, then why not take it? If your elligible. And they make it so that most people are.

Also, what I can't stand is that the government gives to every state all these giant grants and monies for anything and everything they desire to have in their state. It's ridiculus. You saw my extra long list of wasteful spending. This administration could care less about what they spend. Look at the Mrs. She spent $75,000. per DAY of the taxpayers money on one vacay to Spain. That could help one family for 2 years who are unemployed. And how long was she there? Think of where that money could have gone. Very insensitive to do that at this time for the American people. The Obama's are in their own little world nad have NO clue what the people they govern are going through. They act like a King and Queen instead of Leaders who are volunteerily governing the people. This is a paid, but SERVICE to the people job. ALL of them act this way. We're sick of it! Just wait till Nov. when we knock everyone whose been there for more than one term OUT!

btrieger's original post:

Thank goodness no one paid any attention to instructions. This is a fascinating discussion as it sprawls over all available topics and I appreciate the input from everyone.

Now back to our regularly scheduled dissent, hue and outcry.

Good post and I agree!

btrieger's original post:

Thank goodness no one paid any attention to instructions. This is a fascinating discussion as it sprawls over all available topics and I appreciate the input from everyone.

Now back to our regularly scheduled dissent, hue and outcry.

We all seem to wander from a threads original topic. I'm most guilty of that.

I believe in God and what He tells us in His word. He says that Jesus will return to this Earth in the same way that He left it. A Spirit being who was able to be seen and touched and heard.

First, there will be what the Christians refer to as a rapture of believers. This means that at any given point in time,when God chooses to, He will remove all the believers in Christ that are still alive from this Earth. He takes them up to Heaven instantly, the same way Jesus was brought to Heaven during His ressurection. Then a period of 7 years will go by. Those who didn't get raptured from the earth are still living here for those 7 years. They are the unbelievers. They will be wondering where the Christians all went. They will figure it out, I'm sure. They have only those 7 years time left to turn from their unbelief and accept Jesus as their Savior. It will be difficult for them to do this because first, God removes His Holy Spirit from the earth, and His Holy Spirit is the one who draws people to God, and secondly, because those in charge on the earth will be forcing them not to turn to God by making it impossible for them to buy or sell anything unless they put a mark of some kind on their hand or forehead. This mark will be a sign of their allegiance to whatever government or peron that is in charge at the time. (It is really the devil himself) Those who refuse to take the mark will be killed. (It's okay though if they are killed, because their reward will be eternal life for believeing in Jesus.) When Jesus returns, He will bring all of the believers who were raptured and all the believers in God throughout history who died and went to heaven, back to the earth with Him. He will bring this Earth under His control and headship. The bible teaches that Satan will be removed from here, and there will be a time (1000 years) of Jesus' ruling over the people here. AFTER that, Satan will be released, for a short time, and once again he deceives people to go his way and turn from God. Then the earth as we know it will be destroyed and God will make a new heaven and a new earth for the believers to dwell in forever. Believeres will live eternally. The Earth will be destroyed with fire. All the unbelievers will perish in it. This is known as going to Hell. Hell is really this Earth that we live on. The believers will receive a new Heaven and Earth that God will create just for them to dwell in forever. Unbelievers will die and be no more. They are destroyed and perish.

This is how the end plays out. God gave us all this information in the bible. He wants us to be prepared and to know what is going to happen. He has never been wrong before in his fortelling of future events. In the Old Testament, He fortold of the Birth, death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus, and it came to pass exactly as He said it would. Because of this, I can believe what He tells me will happen in the future.