:w00t:

We are now socialist, one step away from communism, the red menace.

I wish Mr. Bush could have run again, he would have wiped the floor with that Osama.

Look at this economy, it was never this bad under Mr. Bush

Spend, Spend, Spend, Who's got the money? Aww, it's alright we'll make more

LMAO!! Cleo's you're a gem! :confused:

PG, says,

I agree with free will to follow or not follow the laws.

Every person has the free will to make their own choices in life, but they will have to suffer the consequences for them, If they do right, the consequences should be favorable, if they do wrong, the consequences will be unfavorable.

Just because God gives us a free will, that doesn't mean he is giving us the freedom to do anything we desire. He is the one who hands out the consequences.

Apparent you don't understand the concept of free will from your response in paragraph 2. That is what free will is...the freedom to do anything that is desired. God wants us to follow him but some of us choose not to. They choose to have an abortion, right or wrong, their choice God says, not yours.

Also you stated that you stand on the side of the baby, but not the mother from implication. They go hand in hand and that creation of a baby comes and is born forth through that mother. You can't make decisions for a part of her body, just like she can't make decisions for yours. Great, you care about the child, but that is NEVER going to be your decision to make regardless of if it's against the law. You can preach about it, protest about it but a woman who is pregnant is going to have an abortion if she wants it regardless. History has proved that women regardless of it being illegal will have an abortion if she is persistant enough and I really, really don't think the law is prepared to put women in jail for it. Thus will never be considered murder or punishable.

You need to think long and hard on Gods version of free will and not your own.

PG says,

Even though we have free will, we must still have laws that keep others safe from harm. Abortion harms people. It kills babies. You can make choices in life, (free will) JUST SO LONG AS THEY DON'T HARM OTHERS! We have laws against physical violence. We don't say, "oh, that's okay, punch your kid as much as you like, you have a free will" No, we make sure your "free will" is kept in check. We make sure that you don't abuse children. We have laws against sexual abuse. We don't say, "Go ahead, rape her. You're just exercising your free will that God gave you." No, we make sure that others are protected with our laws. Somehow, by Satan's hand I'm sure, in 1973, the law was changed to allow murdering babies in the womb by deeming them unhuman.

So here we have the bulk of the problem. You think it should read that a fetus has rights and I don't think they should until they are born and independant of its mother, meaning born and breathing. The law states that fetuses are not human. We elected these representatives to make decisions like this. You can take that argument up with your representative or better still protest the Supreme court to change it.

As stated before, I don't think that decision would change lightly or in my lifetime but stranger things can happen. I am beyond having children now and I grew up knowing I had the freedom to have an abortion if I so choose. Many of the younger generation grew up that way too. That would be a horrible fight to put the genie back in the bottle, which is what it would come down to. And the end result would be the same, women having abortions regardless.

As long as you fully understand the difference of what you consider free will and what God consideres free will may not be the same, my work is done here.

Edited June 2, 201016 yr by tdslf1

I'm voting Republican because I LOVE this war, but have never actually served in combat!

I'm voting Republican because I campaigned on family values, even though there's a dead male hooker buried under the concrete in the floor of our shed!

I'm voting Republican because I believe that borrowing money to deficit finance a tax cut for rich people in the middle of a two front war, which we're also deficit financing, is sound conservative fiscal policy!

I'm voting Republican because I believe Jesus personally put Bush in the Whitehouse, and tucks him in every single night!

Why, I could believe in flying spaghetti monsters, and if you didn't yield before that belief, I could become offended to the point of being mortified that you don't respect my core values.

THAT'S why I'm voting Republican!

Well, on refelction, I guess the real reason I'm voting Republican, is that Koolaid is f*****g delicious.

Cleo, you are a riot!!! Loved this little ditty~~~~:biggrin:

Patty --You should use a bible quote that actually supports your position instead of undermining it. Lets break down the above quote into portions so we can understand it better.

Part 1. "And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.

Wouldn't you agree this says if men are fighting and they accidentally strike a woman with child and she has a miscarriage the husband may demand a payment in the form of a fine that the fighting men shall pay, as the judges decide?

Part 2. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life.

So further injury must mean further than the miscarriage, now they are talking about the woman not the fetus, (the fetus was lost in the miscarriage, see part 1). So the punishment for further injury to the woman calls for life for life. The injury to the fetus calls for a fine to be determined by the husband.

Good for you Leigha. You've taken the time to explain it. I usually am just so exasperated by her logic I start slinging barbs.

Anybody notice we're running out of conservatives to debate? Where's Chris from NJ, where's Ariscus? :biggrin:

You and Cleo's and Leigha and phil and others have called them out on their lame arguments. And I say to all of you GOOD JOB!!!!

Fellow Democrats,

President came out swinging today so we have to do our parts. Keep em' on the ropes. I haven't heard 1 proposal by the rethugs that can help us in the situation we find our country in. They have two solutions only:

Cut taxes and freeze spending.

All I hear are those two phrases. They won't work rethugs!!

Any economist that I have heard talk has said that. I am still wondering if any of the yahoos have looked at their taxes and realized they got a tax break and not a tax hike. But lets not get into that debate because facts mean very little to them.

Lets just go out and talk to people who are undecided and independant who might not realize all that we have done with this administration.

Access to healthcare for kids over 18(currently?)

Prexisting conditions come, Sept?

Public aid for so many who don't have it

Tax cuts

Financial reform- small step but a step

DADT through the House

These are great accomplishments, Dems. We have to talk to the people who look at facts and not those firmly in the camp of Fake Noise rhetoric.

Also saw the stats on the race in KY. Paul is dropping like a rock in the polls. A 15 point drop! Probably wondering why his idiotic views are not universally accepted. I see he is hiding from the microphone like the dumb Palin. We understand why she needs to hide, but Paul was at least articulate in his idiocy. Palin, WOW.

I say put the pressure on em to come up with something that will work. Maybe they will do the same thing they have been doing, NOTHING.

tdsfl1, you betcha! Great points and how could I have forgotten you from the list above... you are one of the ones I was referring to who make so much sense.

We should all stop taking it for granted that because they're so wrong and so transparent we can just sit quietly by and expect them to go down in flames. It just doesn't happen that way with the Republicans.

When someone in life is willing to lie, willing to do anything whether it is honest or not, there will be people who believe them and people who will follow their lead. This is true in our daily lives at work, in our families and with our friends. You've probably met people who operate like the Republicans. You can't sit idly by and let them get away with it because if you do, they will definitely get away with it.

We need do what you suggest, it makes sense. We have to speak up.

Good post.

IF you own a Home Read this it will make you SICK.!!??

Something every home owner should be made aware of!

Don't want to be bothered with "Political stuff?" You'd better read this one. It will come as a huge shock to you if you aren't informed as to what Obama is up to, and apparently it has already passed one hurdle. It will take very little now to put it into actual law!! YOU'D BETTER WAKE UP AMERICA !!!! So you think you live in a free country, boy have you got a surprise coming.

A License Required for your HOUSE?

If you own your home you really need to check this out. At the end of this email is the Google link to verify. If the country thinks the housing market is depressed now, wait until everyone sees this; no one will be buying homes in the future.

We encourage you to read the provisions of the Cap and Trade Bill that has passed the House of Representatives and being considered by the Senate. We are ready to join the next march on Washington ! This Congress and whoever on their staffs that write this junk are truly out to destroy the middle class of the U.S.A ....

A License will be required for your house...no longer just for cars and mobile homes....Thinking about selling your house. Take a look at H.R. 2454 (Cap and Trade bill). This is unbelievable! Only the beginning from this administration! Home owners take note & tell your friends and relatives who are home owners!

Beginning 1 year after enactment of the Cap and Trade Act, you won't be able to sell your home unless you retrofit it to comply with the energy and water efficiency standards of this Act. H.R. 2454, the "Cap & Trade" bill passed by the House of Representatives, if it is also passed by the Senate, will be the largest tax increase any of us has ever experienced.

The Congressional Budget Office (supposedly non-partisan) estimates that in just a few years the average cost to every family of four will be $6,800 per year. No one is excluded. However, once the lower classes feel the pinch in their wallets, you can be sure these voters get a tax refund (even if they pay no taxes at all) to offset this new cost. Thus, you Mr. And Mrs. Middle Class have to pay even more since additional tax dollars will be needed to bail out everyone else..

But wait. This awful bill (that no one in Congress has actually read) has many more surprises in it. Probably the worst one is this: A year from now you won't be able to sell your house. Yes, you read that right.

The caveat is (there always is a caveat) that if you have enough money to make required major upgrades to your home, then you can sell it. But, if not, then forget it. Even pre-fabricated homes ("mobile homes") are included. In effect, this bill prevents you from selling your home without the permission of the EPA administrator.

To get this permission,you will have to have the energy efficiency of your home measured. Then the government will tell you what your new energy efficiency requirement is and you will be forced to make modifications to your home under the retrofit provisions of this Act to comply with the new energy and water efficiency requirements.

Then you will have to get your home measured again and get a license (called a "label" in the Act) that must be posted on your property to show what your efficiency rating is; sort of like the Energy Star efficiency rating label on your refrigerator or air conditioner. If you don't get a high enough rating, you can't sell.

And, the EPA administrator is authorized to raise the standards every year, even above the automatic energy efficiency increases built into the Act. The EPA administrator, appointed by the President, will run the Cap & Trade program (AKA the "American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009") and is authorized to make any future changes to the regulations and standards he/she alone determines to be in the government's best interest. Requirements are set low initially so the bill will pass Congress; then the Administrator can set much tougher new standards every year.

The Act itself contains annual required increases in energy efficiency for private and commercial residences and buildings. However, the EPA administrator can set higher standards at any time. Sect. 202 Building Retrofit Program mandates a national retrofit program to increase the energy efficiency of all existing homes across America.

Beginning 1 year after enactment of the Act, you won't be able to sell your home unless you retrofit it to comply with the energy and water efficiency standards of this Act. You had better sell soon, because the standards will be raised each year and will be really hard (I.e., ex$pen$ive) to meet in a few years. Oh, goody!

The Act allows the government to give you a grant of several thousand dollars to comply with the retrofit program requirements IF you meet certain energy efficiency levels. But, wait, the State can set additional requirements on who qualifies to receive the grants. You should expect requirements such as "can't have an income of more than $50K per year", "home selling price can't be more than $125K", or anything else to target the upper middle class (and that's YOU) and prevent them from qualifying for the grants.

Most of us won't get a dime and will have to pay the entire cost of the retrofit out of our own pockets. More transfer of wealth, more "change you can believe in." Sect. 204 Building Energy Performance Labeling Program establishes a labeling program that for each individual residence will identify the achieved energy efficiency performance for "at least 90 percent of the residential market within 5 years after the date of the enactment of this Act."

This means that within 5 years 90% of all residential homes in the U.S. must be measured and labeled. The EPA administrator will get $50M each year to enforce the labeling program. The Secretary of the Department of Energy will get an additional $20M each year to help enforce the labeling program. Some of this money will, of course, be spent on coming up with tougher standards each year...

Oh, the label will be like a license for your car. You will be required to post the label in a conspicuous location in your home and will not be allowed to sell your home without having this label. And, just like your car license, you will probably be required to get a new label every so often - maybe every year.

But, the government estimates the cost of measuring the energy efficiency of your home should only cost about $200 each time. Remember what they said about the auto smog inspections when they first started: that in California it would only cost $15.

That was when the program started. Now the cost is about $50 for the inspection and certificate; a 333% increase. Expect the same from the home labeling program. Sect. 304 Greater Energy Efficiency in Building Codes establishes new energy efficiency guidelines for the National Building Code and mandates at 304(d) that 1 year after enactment of this Act, all state and local jurisdictions must adopt the National Building Code energy efficiency provisions or must obtain a certification from the federal government that their state and/or local codes have been brought into full compliance with the National Building Code energy efficiency standards.

CHECK OUT Just a few of the sites;

Cap and Trade: A License Required for your Home

Cap and Trade: A License Required for your Home - InterNACHI Message Board

HR2454 American Clean Energy & Security Act:

Waxman-Markey Climate Change Bill -- H.R. 2454: American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 (GovTrack.us)

Cap & Trade A license required for your home:

Cap and Trade: A License Required for your Home

Cap and trade is a license to cheat and steal:

Cap and trade is a license to cheat and steal | San Francisco Examiner

Cap and Trade: A License Required for your Home:

Cap and Trade: A License Required for your Home (Thinking about selling your house? HA!)

Thinking about selling you House? Look at HR 2454:

The Federal Observer

www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=A+License+required+for+your+home-+Cap+and+Trade&btnG=Google+Search

This is bad.....real bad....these guys MUST be stopped, stopped now, and stopped HARD!!!!

Pass this on to everyone on your e-mail list pass it across America!

Some how this group must be stopped they will do more damage until we can elect new people to replace them. You must remember all this next time you vote.

Um Patty, do you ever click on the links that "support" your claims? I did, it brought up urban legends at about.com that states your email is false. Snopes does too. Pure hysteria. Post facts not lies.

So what exactly is this saying? Is this basically saying that houses have to be upgraded as energy efficient by replacing windows, paint and doors that might have abestos, lead and other chemicals harmful to humans? That this house has to have paperwork that says it is up to standards in the form of a license? That this license has to be on file?

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with making a house safe for children. I personally bought a property that had walls, dorr frames and such that had lead paint on them and this all had to be replaced. It should be standard operating procedure.

No big deal if this is what the big fuss is about.

C'mon pattygreen, did ya really think we wouldn't check? Duh!!

Retrofit, Energy License Not Required

The House of Representatives passed H.R. 2454, the American Clean Energy and Security Act in June 2009. A chain e-mail that has been forwarded to us repeatedly in recent days says that the bill would require homeowners to retrofit their houses to meet new energy standards, and obtain a license from the Environmental Protection Agency before they could sell a home. Don’t believe it. The claims are false. In fact, we said last summer that claims that the bill requires such things were false in... Click to Read the Full Post

factcheck.org

Are you really that gullible or just another neocon who likes to spread lies and cause trouble?

This is a clear example of how right wingers are so easily fooled and brainwashed. They get hysterical over nothing and perpetuate the hysteria by sending out the lies to everyone they know without ever checking the facts. If we want to be well-informed responsible American citizens we need to find out the truth, not fall for every lie that falls from the lips of Rush, Glen and Sarah and their ilk. Ignorance is not bliss! It's ruining our country.

If I were a betting man.... my money would be on likes to spread lies and cause trouble.