Big Ol' Hairy Religion vs. Athiest Debate

[Titslereaux 1]

Perhaps my favorite hypocrisy is getting on your knees to pray to cement statues and wooden crosses while wringing glass rosary beads in your hands while the 2nd Commandment prohibits the construction or fashioning of "idols" in the likeness of created things (beasts, fish, birds, people) and worshiping them.

[Chelle B 0]

Perhaps my favorite hypocrisy is getting on your knees to pray to cement statues and wooden crosses while wringing glass rosary beads in your hands while the 2nd Commandment prohibits the construction or fashioning of "idols" in the likeness of created things (beasts, fish, birds, people) and worshiping them.

Oh, now it's getting fun! The nastiness is showing!

I'm pretty sure people who do this are not praying to the cement statue, etc....

[gadgetlady 4]

Perhaps my favorite hypocrisy is getting on your knees to pray to cement statues and wooden crosses while wringing glass rosary beads in your hands while the 2nd Commandment prohibits the construction or fashioning of "idols" in the likeness of created things (beasts, fish, birds, people) and worshiping them.

I have a question for you. Was your original question in this thread serious? Or were you just trying to start a controversial thread? Because it seems like you are not seeking, that you have already made up your mind.

[uniqueone 0]

Perhaps my favorite hypocrisy is getting on your knees to pray to cement statues and wooden crosses while wringing glass rosary beads in your hands while the 2nd Commandment prohibits the construction or fashioning of "idols" in the likeness of created things (beasts, fish, birds, people) and worshiping them.

I'm curious what half of you is Catholic, as you stated in your original post?

[green 6]

Robgoblin, I hope you're laughing as hard as me right now because this misunderstanding had nothing at all to do with you! Green pointed out that we had a good debate going. I didn't want the discussion to go off topic so I edited out the "ugly" line. I just asked that you & Green edit out just the "quote" so we can keep this debate on track. Make sense?

Yah, like the sage, my post is Ghandhi.

[ELENATION 0]

I wish I had the answers for you. I have my own, very strong, beliefs; that mean something to me. However....

I honestly believe it is how you live your life that counts. You will statistically find hypocrites who are both believers and non-believers. You will find wonderful people in both arenas as well. I don't understand how some people believe anything blindly (I do understand faith, just not blind faith). I don't understand why so many people judge others based on silly criteria.

I can't answer anything from the Atheist POV. I am reading the Bible to better understand religion as a whole. Very interesting reading at that...

You may never get all the answers. You can just choose how to live your life every day. Good luck!

I'm a Christian and I try to follow Christ's way, and note I say "try" because I know I'm not perfect and make plenty of mistakes, but I also think that the way you live your life , therefore how you treat othres, if you help others, if you behave in a good and decent and humane way overall throughout your life is extremely important...

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

All I can do is ask. And it is rare indeed when I do that. I am pretty sure that I don't hold sway over the decisions of a supreme being....

Is it the prayers for a person who is suffering that help? Is it the knowledge that people are praying on that person's behalf what makes the difference? I like to think that there is power in prayer.

MENSA has this debate on a regular basis, with about the same results. Been going on forever, and I'm sure will continue forever.

Well, lots of people have this debate. It really does come down to the same thing. If a God knows all before it is even done then prayers are not going to help. If by asking him to do you a little favor then he didn't know everything before it happened and he isn't much of a God. Thus, prayers cannot help or this God is not as claimed. We can like to think lots of things, that doesn't make them true.

[Titslereaux 1]

I'm curious what half of you is Catholic, as you stated in your original post?

The skeptical side.

[Titslereaux 1]

I have a question for you. Was your original question in this thread serious? Or were you just trying to start a controversial thread? Because it seems like you are not seeking, that you have already made up your mind.

Both; my original thread was indeed serious but I also appreciate a controversial thread. I do not deny there's a God, but I can't bring myself to buy into Man's interpretation. I like seeing people's passion and reading conflicting views to paint a better picture.

I don't enjoy being indecisive at all! Others who were born with this fickle, analytical mind will understand how difficult it can be getting a good night's sleep, because this is just one of the concerns that often flies through my mind at 3:00 a.m.

I pray, just not the way most people do. I pray for God's will for me, not what I think I want. To me, God is a place in my heart, not in a book.

[ELENATION 0]

(laughing)

Logic? flawless? uh, no.

God already conquered evil - Jesus was crucified for our sins.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

– John 3:16

Evil is what happens when one turns away from the love of God. Which you have already done. So, sorry, your cute little quote has no meaning. A blind man cannot see nor describe a rainbow . . . neither can a non-believer understand the ways of God. For His light is only understood by those who ASK . . . or seek it.

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." - Matthew 3:8

They shall see God: Not with the natural eye, but the spiritual vision; by faith. In the pure heart the Lord will dwell and his presence will be recognized. See John 14:23.

As for the Gospels, it's already been quoted in another post: "This means that our New Testament is 99.5% textually pure." Stand to Reason: Is the New Testament Text Reliable?

Now . . . I am resigning from this "debate". There's no more to be said. I'm secure in my faith, I know I have the Holy Spirit in my life. I'm content. Those of you who don't believe don't want to hear anything I have to say, and those who do believe don't need it, they already understand. I don't care about atheists. It's your soul, not mine. It seems (some) people cannot accept the differences of others without getting nasty. Believe as you will. My work is done here.

Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

peace.

Your soul filled with God's love - unlimited.

Forgiven - paid in full by Jesus.

Being a Christian - Priceless!

You know, I find interesting the debate and I admire how some people can debate without being hurtful and vicious, and I know there are plenty great debaters here, but some poeple just can't, they must bash, hurt and requote their own quotes when nobody answered to them....oh well, whatever makes them happy....:clap2:

[gadgetlady 4]

Both; my original thread was indeed serious but I also appreciate a controversial thread. I do not deny there's a God, but I can't bring myself to buy into Man's interpretation. I like seeing people's passion and reading conflicting views to paint a better picture.

I don't enjoy being indecisive at all! Others who were born with this fickle, analytical mind will understand how difficult it can be getting a good night's sleep, because this is just one of the concerns that often flies through my mind at 3:00 a.m.

I pray, just not the way most people do. I pray for God's will for me, not what I think I want. To me, God is a place in my heart, not in a book.

I appreciate your honesty and understand your indecisiveness. I too struggled with my upbringing in the Catholic faith (not to bash Catholics at all) and the pieces didn't fall into place until I discovered a critical-thinking Christian church. I am also and often frustrated, annoyed, and concerned about the face that man places on God and how that presents to the outside world. I can tell you that I am quite well educated and very much a critical thinker and the Bible holds no controversy or ambiguity for me whatsoever -- so it is possible to resolve those conflicts!

[kagoscuba 0]

"the Bible holds no controversy or ambiguity for me whatsoever"

It does to me. For one thing it was written by men. Two, it was vetted by various groups and entire chapters were thrown out of it. Three, lots of things were lost in translation. For example, "Thou shalt not kill" was not in the "original" version. Translated from the original Hebrew, that commandment read, "Thou shalt not murder." There is a big difference in connotation there. For example, those who refuse to fight in war because it is killing (thus in conflict with the Bible) lose their argument, when faced with the true translation. Not to mention, there was lots of God-sanctioned war in the Bible.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I appreciate your honesty and understand your indecisiveness. I too struggled with my upbringing in the Catholic faith (not to bash Catholics at all) and the pieces didn't fall into place until I discovered a critical-thinking Christian church. I am also and often frustrated, annoyed, and concerned about the face that man places on God and how that presents to the outside world. I can tell you that I am quite well educated and very much a critical thinker and the Bible holds no controversy or ambiguity for me whatsoever -- so it is possible to resolve those conflicts!

I understand what you mean about Catholicism.

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I was floored when I learned what communion meant. Yikes.

I wasn't really reminded of it until last year when I was a moderator for a Catholic forum. Heh... talk about trippy. However, I was a good mod, I really was. If I tended to favor anyone it was the Catholics because it was their forum. I tried not to favor anyone but I'm not sure I always did that one well. Sometimes I just wasn't sure what to do.

Regardless, it reminded me of how many rules there are for Catholics! OMZ I couldn't believe the rules. Can one marry outside on the church lawn or must it be in a church, which prayer to say at which ritual, the long and drawn out explanations for the most basic matters... I had forgotten.

Can't say I miss the rules and regulations. I think that is the Catholic church downfall. People can buy into a lot of material but they don't do politics and rules well. Give them a place to worship their God but don't tell them in specific detail how to worship that God and what to say. They don't buy it.

A long time ago (5 years?) here in AZ the Catholic church was pushing hard with TV advertisements and such for Catholics to come back to the church. It failed badly when it came out that the same guy that was asking people to come back to the church was arrested for covering up for pedophiles. While he was waiting that one out he ran over a dead body. Apparently someone ran over him first and the bishop ran him over again and didn't even stop, he just went home... I don't quite recall the details. I might have that one wrong. Anyway, the Catholics did not come back to the church. They left the church completely or went to other lines of belief.

Perhaps if they would let the drama and politics go and just get to the basics people could do that one better. Each person feels a bit differently about their God and how to communicate with him and when they are told what to pray for, who to vote for, how to pray, what to say, when to say it... it chases people away, pure and simple.

[joe7777 1]

I can tell you that I am quite well educated and very much a critical thinker and the Bible holds no controversy or ambiguity for me whatsoever -- so it is possible to resolve those conflicts!

This is a snippet (there is about 10 times more of these) No ambiguity huh?

Credit to: Bible Inconsistencies: Bible Contradictions?

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.

GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.

GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.

GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.

GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.

GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.

LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.

GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.

(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.

EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.< /p>

GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.

HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.

2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.

PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.

EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.

EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.

LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.

NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.

2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."

EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."

2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.

GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.

JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.

GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.

GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.

NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.

NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.

GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.

JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.

LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.

JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).

1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).

RO 3:10,  3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.

GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).

GE 11:7-9 God sows discord.

PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.

GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.

1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.

GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah.

LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah.

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.

GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).

GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.

EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.

GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.

GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.

GE 15:9, EX 20:24,  29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings.

JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.

GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.

HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

GE 17:1, 35:11, 1CH 29:11-12, LK 1:37 God is omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God.

JG 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had Iron chariots.

GE 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be everlasting.

GA 6:15 It is of no consequence.

GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession."

GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.

LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

GE 18:20-21 God decides to "go down" to see what is going on.

PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

GE 19:30-38 While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring.

2PE 2:7 Lot was "just" and "righteous."

GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.

JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).

1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.

JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.

GE 27:28 "May God give you ... an abundance of grain and new wine."

DT 7:13 If they follow his commandments, God will bless the fruit of their wine.

PS 104:15 God gives us wine to gladden the heart.

JE 13:12 "... every bottle shall be filled with wine."

JN 2:1-11 According to the author of John, Jesus' first miracle was turning Water to wine.

RO 14:21 It is good to refrain from drinking wine.

GE 35:10 God says Jacob is to be called Jacob no longer; henceforth his name is Israel.

GE 46:2 At a later time, God himself uses the name Jacob.

GE 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz.

GE 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz.

1CH 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek.

GE 49:2-28 The fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin.

RE 7:4-8 (Leaves out the tribe of Dan, but adds Manasseh.)

GE 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite.

AC 7:15-16 He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor.

EX 3:1 Jethro was the father-in-law of Moses.

NU 10:29, JG 4:11 (KJV) Hobab was the father-in-law of Moses.

EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17 God instructs the Israelites to despoil the Egyptians, to plunder their enemies.

EX 20:15, 17, LE 19:13 God prohibits stealing, defrauding, or robbing a neighbor.

EX 4:11 God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc.

2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love.

EX 9:3-6 God destroys all the cattle (including horses) belonging to the Egyptians.

EX 9:9-11 The people and the cattle are afflicted with boils.

EX 12:12, 29 All the first-born of the cattle of the Egyptians are destroyed.

EX 14:9 After having all their cattle destroyed, then afflicted with boils, and then their first-born cattle destroyed, the Egyptians pursue Moses on horseback.

EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them.

PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God.

EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as more than 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of about 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt.

1KI 20:15 All the Israelites, including children, number only 7000 at a later time.

EX 15:3, 17:16, NU 25:4, 32:14, IS 42:13 God is a man of war--he is fierce and angry.

RO 15:33, 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love and peace.

EX 20:1-17 God gave the law directly to Moses (without using an intermediary).

GA 3:19 The law was ordained through angels by a mediator (an intermediary).

EX 20:4 God prohibits the making of any graven images whatsoever.

EX 25:18 God enjoins the making of two graven images.

EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins.

DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

EX 20:8-11, 31:15-17, 35:1-3 No work is to be done on the Sabbath, not even lighting a fire. The commandment is permanent, and death is required for infractions.

MK 2:27-28 Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (after his disciples were criticized for breaking the Sabbath).

RO 14:5, CN 2:14-16 Paul says the Sabbath commandment was temporary, and to decide for yourself regarding its observance.

EX 20:12, DT 5:16, MT 15:4, 19:19, MK 7:10, 10:19, LK 18:20 Honor your father and your mother is one of the ten commandments. It is reinforced by Jesus.

MT 10:35-37, LK 12:51-53, 14:26 Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple.

MT 23:9 Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

[gadgetlady 4]

"the Bible holds no controversy or ambiguity for me whatsoever"

It does to me. For one thing it was written by men. Two, it was vetted by various groups and entire chapters were thrown out of it. Three, lots of things were lost in translation. For example, "Thou shalt not kill" was not in the "original" version. Translated from the original Hebrew, that commandment read, "Thou shalt not murder." There is a big difference in connotation there. For example, those who refuse to fight in war because it is killing (thus in conflict with the Bible) lose their argument, when faced with the true translation. Not to mention, there was lots of God-sanctioned war in the Bible.

I don't have a lot of time right now to go into everything you've mentioned, but I do have a quick comment on the "murder" vs. "kill" issue. It all depends on the translation you read. I read the NIV, which I believe based on my studies is one of the best translations available. This version says "You shall not murder".

I go to a wonderful church which spends a lot of time during sermons delving into the historical connotation of the issues being addressed. The things I learn every week are astonishing. They don't change what was written, but they bring it into clearer focus. If you are interested in this at all, later I can post a link for you so you can download some sermons. They're about 40 minutes long and absolutely fascinating.