Woo HOO!! Supreme Court upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban!!!!

FunnyDuddies · May 21, 2007

Not in all states. Women in Alaska, Hawaii, Massachusetts, and Nebraska are just shit out of luck.

They may not have "drop off points" but every woman in every state in this country can give their child up.

anonemouse · May 21, 2007

Once that baby is born, if the mother did not want it and planned to kill it, at that point the woman's emotional stature does not play into this.

That's true, but ultimately has no bearing. We are not discussing the killing of the already born, we are discussing the killing of the unborn. Two totally different topics.

If the law can state that one person cannot kill another person, then the law should state that unborn and partially born babies be included in that "thou shall not kill" category.

And you can feel free to believe that. Other people have the right to believe otherwise.

And it is my choice to make. As a voter I have every right to band together with those that feel the same way I do and try to prevent further deaths of innocent children.

Yes, you do. And I have the right to band together with those that feel that the only people who should decide a woman's health care are herself and her doctor.

With the ban on partial birth abortions being upheld it seems the govt is starting to come around and see it our way.

Not necessarily. There is a vast ideological and scientific difference between an abortion that results in the death of a viable fetus and an abortion that results in the death of a non-viable fetus. One may be outlawed, but the other will never be, at least not while there is disagreement about when life begins.

And no matter how hard you wish it were otherwise, abortion IS facing the responsibility of being pregnant. It may not be the decision that YOU wish people would make, but they ARE taking responsibility. Should people that don't want children just never experience the closeness of sex with someone they care about? I know that you'll say that those women should make sure that they're sterilized, but as I think Green would be happy to explain to you, it isn't that easy.

anonemouse · May 21, 2007

They may not have "drop off points" but every woman in every state in this country can give their child up.

But, they can't "just drop it off like dry cleaning and not have to deal with it any longer." In those states, that's called abandonment and it's illegal. You may be able to legally give a child up in those states, but I'll bet it's not as easy as it sounds. Otherwise, those other states wouldn't have needed safe havens.

FunnyDuddies · May 21, 2007

inline:

That's true, but ultimately has no bearing. We are not discussing the killing of the already born, we are discussing the killing of the unborn. Two totally different topics.
Actually, we are discussing partial birth abortions. A procedure where part of the baby is still in the woman's body, but another part is out. in most cases the baby has already taken its first breath, and often times cries the moment the skull is pierced with the scissors. They also sieze and react to the pain when the brain is sucked out of the back of the head with a tube. But, in order for it to not be infanticide, part of the baby must remain inside the woman. My point is, if part of the baby is already presented, why kill it? Where is the harm in letting it be fully birthed?

And you can feel free to believe that. Other people have the right to believe otherwise.

Yes, they do. Doesn't make them right.

Yes, you do. And I have the right to band together with those that feel that the only people who should decide a woman's health care are herself and her doctor.

Yes you do. It is the beauty of the country we live in. If we want something changed, we do it with our votes. May the largest number win!

Not necessarily. There is a vast ideological and scientific difference between an abortion that results in the death of a viable fetus and an abortion that results in the death of a non-viable fetus. One may be outlawed, but the other will never be, at least not while there is disagreement about when life begins.

Sadly, this is true, but we at least get a step closer when we get one law changed, and we can just keep working to make sure that the voices of the innocent remain heard, no matter what the laws state.

And no matter how hard you wish it were otherwise, abortion IS facing the responsibility of being pregnant. It may not be the decision that YOU wish people would make, but they ARE taking responsibility. Should people that don't want children just never experience the closeness of sex with someone they care about? I know that you'll say that those women should make sure that they're sterilized, but as I think Green would be happy to explain to you, it isn't that easy.

Most responsibility is never easy to deal with. That is why a lot of people are so irresponsible. I understand Green's position, but that does not mean that I agree with it. If you do not wish to have children, there are various things that can be done to ensure that it does not happen. Some are full proof, some are pretty good, but not perfect. You take the chances. But if you decide to have sex you need to be prepared to raise a child.

I get that we all have differences in opinion over whether a baby, while still in the womb, is important or not based on whether it is wanted. If we applied this to other sections in our lives people would be all up in arms. But because we put so little stock in life in today's society it will be a long time until the laws change. Talk amongst each other is good, but it is in the govt offices that we need to make our voices heard.

FunnyDuddies · May 21, 2007

But, they can't "just drop it off like dry cleaning and not have to deal with it any longer." In those states, that's called abandonment and it's illegal. You may be able to legally give a child up in those states, but I'll bet it's not as easy as it sounds. Otherwise, those other states wouldn't have needed safe havens.

Actually, what happens is your nurse calls someone from child services, they come down and speakwith you for about 5 minutes. you sign a paper, you go home, and then you go to court on your date stating that you have given all right to your child up. in most cases you never even have to go to court. it is that easy. you never even have to see your baby.

marjon9 · May 21, 2007

Once that baby is born, if the mother did not want it and planned to kill it, at that point the woman's emotional stature does not play into this..

You make my point for me very well. Your total lack of compassion for the woman in this picture is breathtaking. As I mentioned earlier, there is no way to avoid the reality that the abortion issue involves two entities that are intertwined. Choices made for the benefit of one will affect the rights of the other. Your single minded laser focus on the rights of the unborn child, (even one that is gravely abnormal) with absolutely zero compassion for the woman, is very hard for me to understand.

I know you will come back with some snappy answer that does not respond to what I just said, but still, your views are really hard for me to understand.

FunnyDuddies · May 21, 2007

Its simple for me. If someone tries to kill someone else, the only one needing protection is the one being attacked. I am focusing on the needs of the innocent child. Not on the inconvinience of the mother. If the mother is in mortal danger, then I have compassion, but when the baby can be born without distress to the mother, the mother no longer fits into the equation. At that point, if the baby can be born, and is being born when the action of the abortion will occur, then the focus is on that child. Not the family unit as a whole.

Whether my views are hard for you to understand or not makes not relevance to this discussion either, but I hope that I have made it clear why i feel this way so that you can better understand my point of view. Yes, in this scenario I am focusing on the child, because in the case of partial birth abortion there is no reason for the mother to need to kill her baby while it is hanging half way out of her. its barbaric and should never happen for any reason. And for a mother to have the selfish need to kill her offspring puts us back on the same level with the animals.

BJean · May 21, 2007

Mark, FunnyDuddy's constant use of the word "inconvenience" when she refers to impregnated women in this discussion speaks volumes about how much she either chooses not to understand or does not understand the issue. That's why we must fight to the bitter end of this debate. They want us to join in their celebration of a ban on partial birth abortions, but we know what the true final objective is. We must never let it happen, and laurend, make no mistake about it, they want the rights of women to make these personal medical decisions taken away, across the board. No exceptions.

This is the point where I could list all of the heinous scenarios where women have suffered horribly in the past, but I will continue not to do that. The people who use those tactics are hopefully affirming most people's determination to keep a woman's right to make medical decisions about her body her own decisions, not the decisions of the President, the Congress, or the Supreme Court.

FunnyDuddies · May 21, 2007

I do understand the issue, I choose to look at in a different light than you do. No reason to get angry about it. You gotta understand, this is a debate on a board. A lapband board. We are not changing laws here. We are simply discussing. To get this riled up about some people being happy about a decision the courts have made is a bit extremist. We do not wish for you to join in our celebration. But that does not mean we cannot Celebrate. And when you choose to step into our celebration and tell us we are bad for our stances on certain issues, you should expect us to stand up for ourselves and what we believe. Just as we expect you to stand up and believe what you want to believe. As Mark and I have both said quite often in this thread, we are mearly agreeing to disagree, with a few other words added in for good measure. But we will make no changes sitting here just talking. People need to realize that whatever side you come down on, if you only make your voice heard here on a lapband board you are not doing your cause any justice.

And you are very very wrong when you say that I want the medical rights of women taken away across the board. The only thing I am debating here is abortion in its many stages. This has nothing to do with other medical practices of any kind, on men or women. So yeah, there are exceptions. lol

I understand that this topic makes me people angry. Its very emotional on both sides. But we cannot have a healthy debate if we do not keep a level head about it and try to debate the points intelligently.

green · May 21, 2007

Actually, there are cases of babies who are gravely deformed who do go on to live. These children would be individuals who are born with little more than the brain stem, that is to say the part of the brain which controls the automatic functions of the body; they are usually blind, crippled, and remain in fact little more than machines which process food. These babies will grow larger but they will never grow up. Children like this require much hands-on care. Their limbs must be massaged and worked in order that the muscles don't atrophy. They must be fed by hand, they must be bathed, and their diapers must be changed. Such children do exist, you know.

green · May 21, 2007

You make my point for me very well. Your total lack of compassion for the woman in this picture is breathtaking. As I mentioned earlier, there is no way to avoid the reality that the abortion issue involves two entities that are intertwined. Choices made for the benefit of one will affect the rights of the other. Your single minded laser focus on the rights of the unborn child, (even one that is gravely abnormal) with absolutely zero compassion for the woman, is very hard for me to understand.
I know you will come back with some snappy answer that does not respond to what I just said, but still, your views are really hard for me to understand.

Marjon has expressed the concerns of the pro choice gang very well. It is this total lack of concern or sense of compassion for the woman who finds hereself in this position which is appalling to us who sit on the other side of the street with respect to this debate.

You see we live in an era which is very confusing for women. On one hand we are told that women have the same value as men and thus have the right to all the same freedoms, rights, and responsibilities. At the same time, by denying women full control over their own bodies you may as well be telling this entire segment of the population that they must wear the niqab for to force women to remain controlled by their own bodies is to insure that this entire group of individuals will remain handicapped by the vagaries of biology. Women will never be regarded as the equals of men but will be viewed as little more than incubation equipment, hatcheries...or whatever.

Alexandra · May 21, 2007

And no matter how hard you wish it were otherwise, abortion IS facing the responsibility of being pregnant. It may not be the decision that YOU wish people would make, but they ARE taking responsibility. Should people that don't want children just never experience the closeness of sex with someone they care about? I know that you'll say that those women should make sure that they're sterilized, but as I think Green would be happy to explain to you, it isn't that easy.

:nod:

You make my point for me very well. Your total lack of compassion for the woman in this picture is breathtaking. As I mentioned earlier, there is no way to avoid the reality that the abortion issue involves two entities that are intertwined. Choices made for the benefit of one will affect the rights of the other. Your single minded laser focus on the rights of the unborn child, (even one that is gravely abnormal) with absolutely zero compassion for the woman, is very hard for me to understand.

:nod:

Mark, FunnyDuddy's constant use of the word "inconvenience" when she refers to impregnated women in this discussion speaks volumes about how much she either chooses not to understand or does not understand the issue. That's why we must fight to the bitter end of this debate. They want us to join in their celebration of a ban on partial birth abortions, but we know what the true final objective is. We must never let it happen, and laurend, make no mistake about it, they want the rights of women to make these personal medical decisions taken away, across the board. No exceptions.

:nod: Bolding mine, to clarify that BJean is talking about women's reproductive medical decisions. The ones in question in this debate.

You see we live in an era which is very confusing for women. On one hand we are told that women have the same value as men and thus have the right to all the same freedoms, rights, and responsibilities. At the same time, by denying women full control over their own bodies you may as well be telling this entire segment of the population that they must wear the niqab for to force women to remain controlled by their own bodies is to insure that this entire group of individuals will remain handicapped by the vagaries of biology. Women will never be regarded as the equals of men but will be viewed as little more than incubation equipment, hatcheries...or whatever.

:nod: :nod: :nod:

FunnyDuddies · May 21, 2007

I am proud to say that I hold the human life higher than the inconvinience of keeping a child you are in the process of giving birth to. To me, the advancement that you speak of is truly a reversal towards animalistic behavior and tendancies. Plus, having faced this, I know where my responsibility truly lies. If I get pregnant again I will cherish every moment of it, if I lose it, I will mourn the loss of a human life, and if I give birth to a deformed or malformed child, I will love it and care for it every moment I get to spend with it. No child will ever be an inconvinience for me ever again. Because they are what we are handing this world over to in the future, and I think they deserve all the respect, adoration, and chance that we can give them.

396power · May 21, 2007

I'm sorry but I don't truely understand how a woman has a right to choose! Honestly there are 2 lifes and she decides for both that is just wrong. And if you want to argue that the fetus is not alive well you have already lost! He or she is alive. And will only die from complications, either by nature or intentional. And now amount of mickey mouse stuff that the left side people say will make it right ie.. population control, women rights, stem cell research. And for those that say that we conservatives should foot the bill for women to have their baby, well most of us are doing something. And I think that is the right thing to do, becuase we all make mistakes, and need a little help sometimes. but no matter what help we recive, there are always repucutions to our choices. And maybe some of these repeat offenders to killing babys will have some other choices to make if it was illegal. And I know that would not stop it completly but it would stop most of it. And the few that go to dirty doctors and die for killing their baby well they made that choice as well. You see I do belive in a womans right to choose. but there has to be a punishment in place to stop people from doing this crime. And if there isn't then you get people doing this 7 or 8 times or more. Is that right. But what about that baby's right to choose!

396power · May 21, 2007

Marjon has expressed the concerns of the pro choice gang very well. It is this total lack of concern or sense of compassion for the woman who finds hereself in this position which is appalling to us who sit on the other side of the street with respect to this debate.
You see we live in an era which is very confusing for women. On one hand we are told that women have the same value as men and thus have the right to all the same freedoms, rights, and responsibilities. At the same time, by denying women full control over their own bodies you may as well be telling this entire segment of the population that they must wear the niqab for to force women to remain controlled by their own bodies is to insure that this entire group of individuals will remain handicapped by the vagaries of biology. Women will never be regarded as the equals of men but will be viewed as little more than incubation equipment, hatcheries...or whatever.

It's not confusing ( don't have sex if you can't take care of a baby) and if you do get in trouble then we will help you. as much as possible but you ( the pregnant lady ) have more of the responsability. That is what we should be setting as an example, not If you have a problem well kill it. and all your problems will end.