Someone recently passed this article on to me, which I posted on another board. It was promptly removed. So sad . . .

Frightening News from France

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently

not being reported as it should. To give you an idea

of what's going on in France where there are now

between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews,

here is an email that came from a Jew living in

France. Please read! Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?

"I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to

everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back

and do nothing." Nowhere have the flames of

anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France:

Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set

on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center

was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and

Marseilles; so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently.

A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with

Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred

Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" were

painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a

Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The

bus that takes Jewish children to school in

Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen

10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past

30 days. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been

defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to the gas

chambers" and "Death to the Jews."

A gunman opened fire on a Kosher butcher's shop

(and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse , France;

a Jewish couple in their 20s were beaten up by five

men in Villeurbanne , France . The woman was

pregnant; a Jewish school was broken into and

vandalized in Sarcelles , France . This was just in

the past week.

So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a

friend, or merely a person with the capacity and

desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do,

at least, these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let

yourself become deluded into thinking that this is

no t your fight. I remind you of what Pastor

Neimoller said in World War II: "First they came for

the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I

wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and

I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they

came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up,

because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one left to speak up

for me".

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the

Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and,

unlike them, France exports more than just oil and

hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes.

Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott

their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If

we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and,

whatever else we may know about the French, we most

certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a

hurricane in the face of well directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends,

and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of

good conscience that you know and let them know

that you and the people that you care about need

their help. The number one best selling book in

France is "September 11: The Frightening Fraud,"

which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon."

I've noticed that, too, Green. To me, before I enter a debate, I think I should know as much about the topic as possible, or at least as much as possible about the viewpoint I am favoring. Going into a debate with very little knowledge and stating incorrect facts like they were proven doesn't do anything but make you look ignorant and cast doubt on the validity of your viewpoint in other arguments that you might have taken place in. Before I get into an argument with someone, I like make sure that I can back myself up.

Thanks Laurend. As you can may be able to tell, my oldest is bi-racial, so racism is a hot button for me. I am very protective of him cause I love him a lot.

I never visited your site before. Very cool and both the kids are adorable. Congratulations on your weight loss, your fine family, and your fine set of ethics.

I've noticed that, too, Green. To me, before I enter a debate, I think I should know as much about the topic as possible, or at least as much as possible about the viewpoint I am favoring. Going into a debate with very little knowledge and stating incorrect facts like they were proven doesn't do anything but make you look ignorant and cast doubt on the validity of your viewpoint in other arguments that you might have taken place in. Before I get into an argument with someone, I like make sure that I can back myself up.

Yup, this is why I keep out of the way on the Evolution-Creationist debates. I'm an artsy and know that I must shut up!:rolleyes

before I enter a debate, I think I should know as much about the topic as possible, or at least as much as possible about the viewpoint I am favoring.

Always a good practice! And IMO there are a few guidelines that indicate you're steering away from good debate and into bickering or argument, and even desperation:

• When things start moving toward personal attacks or condescension
  
• When people heavily engaged in debate suddenly cry foul
  
• When someone must have the last word - even if it's the maturity equivalent of "I'm rubber, you're glue!"
  
• When someone cannot express independent thought and can only pinpoint a very specific set of criteria (I had a co-worker who did this. You would ask, "Sean, what do you think?" And he would answer, "According to so and so..." "Ok, but what do YOU THINK?" "Well I once read..."
  
• When someone enters under the premise of being "right" versus the premise of trying to share information, explain a perspective, and potentially share insight or expand horizons

I'm not usually active in R&R type threads on most boards. Intentionally. I really enjoyed this one, though, because except for a few bumps in the road we rarely saw any of the above.

Actually, Livitical Law was incumbent upon all of Israel, and not just the preisthood. Is you read the first chapter on the Book of Romans in the New Testament, you will find that God has not changed His view of homosexuality.

Laurend - seen as immoral by most Christian standards and beliefs

There are a lot more components to the murder ratio that just gun ownership. You are failing to take into consideration that most homicides are committed by criminals and not honest citizens that own guns. Of the deaths attributed to guns in legal private ownership, many are justified in protect one's self during to commission of a crime, and most are used wild committing suicide. If there were not guns available, other means would be employed by those seeking to end their lives.

As far as your statement " I guess Jesus said somewhere "Feel free to shoot people and don't worry about destroying the planet" , I am trying real hard to keep my discussions civil, so I am not even going to grace that with a comment. I don't think that was apporiate, do you?

The Gun debate is not a debate, It is statistically proven fact that in countries with high per capita gun ownership Gun crimes are significantly higher. As an example Toronto Canada averages about 2.3 murders per 100,000 citizens a year and of these murders 1.3 are commited using guns. In Chicago those numbers are about 6 times higher on average and Chicago places 48th on the list of murder rates for American cities. Toronto and Chicago are often compared because they are similar in size.

The gun debate is only debated in the USA the rest of the western world has stopped the debate and looked to the facts. The NRA does spend a large amount muddying the waters so I can understand the confusion. This is similar to the Global warming debate in that the only place where some people still beleive that Gun control is bad or that Global warming is a myth is the USA.

It does seem odd that in both cases that the charge is being led by the religious right, I guess Jesus said somewhere "Feel free to shoot people and don't worry about destroying the planet"

Cheers

TommyO

I never visited your site before. Very cool and both the kids are adorable. Congratulations on your weight loss, your fine family, and your fine set of ethics.

Thank you

Look, it appears to me that religion is used by many to verify their opinion, so If someone wants to justify pretty much anything they can usually find a quote from the bible that will prove their opinion especially if they are a conservative.

It isn't hard to imagine that a book written a thousand or more years ago would contain some old-world opinions. It is also appropriatte to note that even though it has been disputed, the truth is that slavery was justified by people of religion in much the same way fundamentalist Christians justify taking away the rights of Gays and Lesbians.

Nowhere in the bible is there any reference to guns but I am certain that you will find some passage that you can use to justify your position on the gun issue.

It is interesting that the bible seems to be so inline with the views of right wing American thinking. Is is possible that you interpret it based on your beleifs not that your beliefs are based on it's teaching.

Every time someone brings up some negative thing that has been done in the name of Christianity the response is that those were/are not true Christians.

If you could tell me how I identify the good guys from the bad guys it would make things a lot easier. Please don't tell me that the good guys are the ones who follow the teachings of the bible. It would seem they all say that they do so I can only conclude that the bible is up for interpretation.

I watched Jesus camp on the weekend, it made me realize how much I disagree with the fundamenatlist Christian doctrine. I realize it was slanted but it certainly painted a negative picture of that segment of society. It seemed sad how narrow their view of the world was. I have to say if those are the folks who I will be with in heaven I don't want to go.

Actually, Livitical Law was incumbent upon all of Israel, and not just the preisthood. Is you read the first chapter on the Book of Romans in the New Testament, you will find that God has not changed His view of homosexuality.

No, I won't find that. But that's not to say YOU won't. Come on, Ron Cusano - realize that 10 people who read the bible will get what, 4, 5, maybe 6 different messages from it. And no, that's not a "low blow", it's at most a fact that you don't like. And yes, we know you're "right", but what I quoted wasn't my own work it was from Pastor Ken Coulter, as compiled and edited by Reverend Bob Ellis. And both of those men agree that:

So many lives have been adversely affected by rampant homophobia. It has been fueled unfortunately by a very vocal misguided few, who seem intent on representing the Gospel of Grace with condemnation. Parents have been separated from their children, brothers from their brothers, wives from husbands.... and yet despite the tragedy of these broken relationships, broken hearts and sometimes the loss of life altogether, self-righteous hatred and disgust toward homosexuals continues. Surely the healing of all this brokenness lies not in hatred, but in love. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jesus did not stop there, but went on to say, "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned..."

A myth has grown up around the issue of homosexuality that for centuries has kept God's people in bondage to condemning and being condemned. But the message of grace is clearly "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." Those who believe in Jesus have been released from the continuous cycle of sin and its consequence, death. Now, we are free to love one another with the love of Christ, no strings attached. As Paul stated it, now we must "keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery......" We have been set free to "through love serve one another." Those who have understood this, regardless of which side of the issue they stand on, have taken an important step toward embracing the true meaning of "GRACE", (God's unmerited favor to all); freely receiving it themselves and sharing it with every person along the way. Because of this, God causes the to "reign in life" through Jesus Christ (Romans 5:17).

So since my post was to Laurend, if you disagree with the message I gave her, take it up with those two. Tell them they are wrong because they don't agree with you.

Cheers.

the truth is that slavery was justified by people of religion in much the same way fundamentalist Christians justify taking away the rights of Gays and Lesbians.

:clap2:

Even today we've seen the perpetuating of racial stereotyping and race discrimination. Perhaps some day people will learn to just "be".

Ousooner, kudos to you for taking a stand against one of the most disgusting things our species is capable of. As I have said to Lisa25, I want to thank you for the stimulation and enlightenment that you bring to these discussions. While the larger "we" may not agree on much, it's refreshing and humbling to see threads of common human civility and not just tolerance but appreciation for human differences.

And that's a lot of words that really boil down to thank you, also, for being a breath of fresh air.

Ousooner, kudos to you for taking a stand against one of the most disgusting things our species is capable of. As I have said to Lisa25, I want to thank you for the stimulation and enlightenment that you bring to these discussions. While the larger "we" may not agree on much, it's refreshing and humbling to see threads of common human civility and not just tolerance but appreciation for human differences.

And that's a lot of words that really boil down to thank you, also, for being a breath of fresh air.

Thanks Wheetsin - I don't post a great deal, especially in the R&R forum. This one has been hard because as a Christian, I have my beliefs and want to express them, but not insult or belittle those that aren't. Not beleiving in God doesn't make anyone a bad or immoral person, it simply means we disagree on our future and afterlife. I appreciate your kind words and am happy, that we can come to a place where we discuss our beliefs and agree to disagree in a civil manner.

Hey ousooner, I see your goal is 5k by Labour day, I ran 5k for the first time on Sunday, it took 35 minutes but I ran the whole way.

Cheers

TommyO

Tommy,

There is nothing in the Bible to justify owning guns. I would never try to make that claim. You asked an important question when you asked "how can you tell the good guys from the bad guys", or how can you tell a real Christian from someone who just claims to be one. Jesus said "by their fruit will you know that they are mine"! Christians are by no means perfect and we screw up sometimes, but real Christians try to live their lives by their beliefs. We don't murder, rape, steal, and we try to love all people even if we disagree with them or "hate their sin"! You don't tell a real Christian by what he says, you tell by what he DOES!!

I can't speak for all of "right wing conservatives", but my values are shaped by my beliefs and not the other way around.

Look, it appears to me that religion is used by many to verify their opinion, so If someone wants to justify pretty much anything they can usually find a quote from the bible that will prove their opinion especially if they are a conservative.

It isn't hard to imagine that a book written a thousand or more years ago would contain some old-world opinions. It is also appropriatte to note that even though it has been disputed, the truth is that slavery was justified by people of religion in much the same way fundamentalist Christians justify taking away the rights of Gays and Lesbians.

Nowhere in the bible is there any reference to guns but I am certain that you will find some passage that you can use to justify your position on the gun issue.

It is interesting that the bible seems to be so inline with the views of right wing American thinking. Is is possible that you interpret it based on your beleifs not that your beliefs are based on it's teaching.

Every time someone brings up some negative thing that has been done in the name of Christianity the response is that those were/are not true Christians.

If you could tell me how I identify the good guys from the bad guys it would make things a lot easier. Please don't tell me that the good guys are the ones who follow the teachings of the bible. It would seem they all say that they do so I can only conclude that the bible is up for interpretation.

I watched Jesus camp on the weekend, it made me realize how much I disagree with the fundamenatlist Christian doctrine. I realize it was slanted but it certainly painted a negative picture of that segment of society. It seemed sad how narrow their view of the world was. I have to say if those are the folks who I will be with in heaven I don't want to go.

The Bible does teach that we should obey the laws of the land and those who are above us, as long as they do not go against the laws and commandments of God. The scriptures make it plain that abortion and same sex marriage go against the commandments of God and in the case of gay marriage, against the laws of nature as well. According to the scriptures, the foundation for our beliefs (a Christians) is supposed to be the Word of God and not our own reasoning. There is a serious issue if a Christian puts his own reasoning and understanding above what God says.

That's not what I asked. I wasn't asking about following laws, I was asking where in the Bible I am commanded to work to make laws to inforce what is in the Bible.

As I said before, I can't force anyone to believe anything. That is a personal matter. But I have an obligation according to the faith to take a stand for what I believe and know the Word of God says and to share my beliefs with others. They are then free to accept to reject them. They have free will.

But you are indeed forcing people to at least act as though they believe as you do. By wanting Biblical principles made into laws for no other reason then they are in the Bible.