Someone recently passed this article on to me, which I posted on another board. It was promptly removed. So sad . . .

Frightening News from France

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently

not being reported as it should. To give you an idea

of what's going on in France where there are now

between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews,

here is an email that came from a Jew living in

France. Please read! Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?

"I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to

everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back

and do nothing." Nowhere have the flames of

anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France:

Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set

on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center

was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and

Marseilles; so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently.

A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with

Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred

Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" were

painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a

Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The

bus that takes Jewish children to school in

Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen

10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past

30 days. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been

defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to the gas

chambers" and "Death to the Jews."

A gunman opened fire on a Kosher butcher's shop

(and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse , France;

a Jewish couple in their 20s were beaten up by five

men in Villeurbanne , France . The woman was

pregnant; a Jewish school was broken into and

vandalized in Sarcelles , France . This was just in

the past week.

So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a

friend, or merely a person with the capacity and

desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do,

at least, these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let

yourself become deluded into thinking that this is

no t your fight. I remind you of what Pastor

Neimoller said in World War II: "First they came for

the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I

wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and

I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they

came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up,

because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one left to speak up

for me".

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the

Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and,

unlike them, France exports more than just oil and

hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes.

Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott

their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If

we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and,

whatever else we may know about the French, we most

certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a

hurricane in the face of well directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends,

and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of

good conscience that you know and let them know

that you and the people that you care about need

their help. The number one best selling book in

France is "September 11: The Frightening Fraud,"

which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon."

So enlighten me. How do KKK members and Neo-Nazi members vote? Because it seems to me that they'd vote for things like racial and religious segregation (which I wouldn't vote for).

They do vote for those things, but they use code words like "nieghborhood values" and "family values" and "law and order" then they vote to put religious statues in government buildings. The politicians know that those code words are understood by the people who would have still voted for racial segregation had the courts not struck it down and yet they sound ok for people who are moderate, but some times do not understand the implecations of the code words.

And then there was the Virginia congressman who was upset (by the false report) that the first Muslim US congressman was going to be sworn in on the Qur'an and the Virginia congressman said that son we would be having a lot of Muslim congressmen if we weren't careful.

If you can not see that putting a statue sybolic of the one religion in a government building meant for the use of US citizens of all religions as religious secragation, then I guess we have a disagreement.

But Laurend, it is not a matter of one's faith not being good enough, it's a matter of which one is true? And of course many folks of different faiths will try to convert me, out of good intentions, and I respect that. But it all gets back to "Who ya gonna follow?" People seem to have lost the idea of the meaning of tolerance. It's not believing that "every religion is equally true" but true tolerance is allowing that person to hold whatever belief he chooses, whether I agree with it or not. Wow, this is great and I want to stay and chat but I have a vet appt for my pup so I have to go. Have a nice evening all!

Susan

Faith can not be true or false. Faith is a feeling, an idea.

A religion might be true or false, but not a faith.

And who determines which religion is true. I am sure that if you and a Muslim debate or discuss religion, you will each believe that your own religion is true. You have a right to explain why you believe yours is true and he has an equal right to explain why he believes his is true, but neither of you has a right IMHO to tell the other one his is false and he will go to Hell for not converting to the other.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I will answer. Hope thats ok. :eek: I would welcome the discussion and would not be offended. I would expect nothing less than them trying to convert me if they were true to their beleifs. If you beleive strognly in your faith, I don't see why you would not want everyone to experience the same wonderful experiences you have. I would do the same in return. I have always said that I admire the faith and didication that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have. I am opposed to their beleifs, but have great admiration for them. I have told many that I wish people in my own faith could only have that kind of dedication dedication.

But at what point do you and him agree to stop trying to convert. Does the request to stop come only after screaming and name calling, or should it be done way before it gets to that point? The question is only a rhetorical question, not a reflection of when you would stop.

Regarding the emboldened statement above about admiration for Mormons and JW's, I would hope that admiration also would include Muslims? I am not asking about Al-Qaida or Taliban type Muslims, but about the millions of American Muslims and hundreds of Millions of Muslims in other countries that US troops are dying for in order to give democracy to them.

These were not put downs! I know how I meant them. There were honest questions and statements. You are just taking them that way. Perhaps you are over sensitive in that area.

You never said it outright, but you did imply it.

Notice the repeating highs and lows.

The highs and lows seem to follow a similar pattern to Ron's repeated mode of: moderate discussion, heavy attack, moderate discussion, apolegtic, moderate discussion, heavy attack, moderate discussion, apolegtic, moderate discussion, heavy attack, moderate discussion, apolegtic, moderate discussion, heavy attack, moderate discussion, apolegtic, etc.

The highs and lows seem to follow a similar pattern to Ron's repeated mode of: moderate discussion, heavy attack, moderate discussion, apolegtic, moderate discussion, heavy attack, moderate discussion, apolegtic, moderate discussion, heavy attack, moderate discussion, apolegtic, moderate discussion, heavy attack, moderate discussion, apolegtic, etc.

Can anyone pin-point on the "sine wave" in the above post where Ron is right now?

No, it's not only me that understands the scriptures. There are millions of others with the same spiritual discernment, all who Love the Lord and accept the Bible as the Word of God.

In the example you sited here, the Pastor was 100% correct. Within the church, a women is not to exert authority over the man. Just as Christ is the head of the Church, a man is the head of the household and is responsible for teaching, among other things. Within the church, women are often used to teach and evangelize, but not to men, because this is the function and obligation of men withing the congregation. In your church, exactly ho many women priests are there???

Men and women are equal before God, in the family and in the church. They just have different roles and responsibilities which are God given. This may not sit well with women's liber's, but that doesn't change the Word of God.

And therein lies a huge part of the problem, Ron. Evidently only you are wise enough, educated enough, or blessed enough to discern what is "clear indication" and what isn't. And the rest of us are just plain WRONG...according to you.

This Baptist Church evidently had a similar problem. For over half a century they failed to apply a literal interpretation to one of the Bible's many commands regarding women. The "clear indication" was a long time coming, in this case.

Aug. 21, 2006 — After 54 years of classes, a New York Sunday school teacher is getting an unexpected lesson in theology: She lost her job because of her sex.

Mary Lambert, 81, has been a member of the First Baptist Church in Watertown, N.Y., for 60 years. She had her wedding on the premises, raised her kids in its halls and taught Sunday school at First Baptist for more than five decades.

But she recently received a letter from the church board notifying her that the board had voted unanimously to dismiss her from her post.

The letter referred to her sex as one of the reasons for her dismissal, quoting the Bible's First Epistle to Timothy, which states: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent."

"I was absolutely astonished," Lambert said.

As were others in her community, including Watertown mayor Jeff Graham, who said it's "fundamentally wrong" to go after a woman teaching Sunday school and use a passage from the Bible as your rationale.

But the church's pastor stands by his decision.

"I believe that God has a very special role for men and women within the church setting and many people look at it as exclusionary, but I don't view at it that way," Tim LaBouf, First Baptist's pastor, said.

LaBouf added Lambert's sex was only one reason she was fired, and that "Christian courtesy" prevents him from saying any more than that.

Decision Ignites Debate

Shortly after the decision was made, news sources contacted LaBouf and he realized the board's decision was being questioned outside of church circles.

"I am fully aware that not everyone ascribes to my view of the Scriptures, but I would never vilify them for having a different religious view, and I would hope that if you do hold a different view that you would extend to me the same courtesy," LaBouf wrote in a statement posted on his church's Web site.

LaBouf is a member of the Watertown City Council, and his opinion is getting more scrutiny, as the council employees a female city manager.

You are making a wrong assumption and very simplistic. Virtually all fundermentalist Christian Bible believers have NO PROBLEM accepting the entire Bible as literal and understand the simple limitations placed by context and common sense. There is no conflict here!

The differences between those who lable themselves as Christian lies between Conservative denominations that accept a literal understand of scripture and Liberal denominations that use an allogorical understanding, so that bthey can claim scripture means whatever they want it to mean.

That's my entire problem with it, also. If entire Christian denominations disagree about which passages to take literally, how can one man say he is absolutely right in his interpretation? That's one of the major sticking points I have in regards to Christianity in general, actually. All the denominations say they have the right interpretation and that all the others are wrong. So who's right? They all defend their interpretation by saying that the Bible tells them that they are doing and saying the right things. To say that you (generic "you", not anyone in particular) have the right interpretation and everyone else is ignorant and going to hell smacks of arrogance and blindness. *shrugs*

You talk about someone "nagging you to convert". You have the unique opportunity, in this forum, to escape the nagging. They can't nag (or what they're saying can't be construed as nagging) if you're not in the room.

But if you want to remain in the thread because you enjoy the discussion, you should not have to be nagged. I have said much about my faith, but because I have not allowed my faith to be picked apart exactly as Laurend discussed, I have been ben mocked by you and Ron. I do not know if it is worse to pick apart a Mormon's or Muslim's faith, or to do it to a fellow Christian, because he got to the point of being a Christian through a different path than you or Ron.

Telling someone that you can leave the thread if you don't like the nagging equates with people who tell me that if I don't like the BuSh administration's decisions, I can leave America.

You talk about my pattern? Let's talk about yours . . .

1: Try to turn every discussion into a "hate Bush" rally

2: Pick apart other religious beliefs without having the gut to talks about

you own.

3: Try to use the Bible, a book you don't know or believe in, to

make biblical points you don't understand

4: Do everything you can to provoke arguments so you can comment on

them.

5: Things quiet down, and you start all over again to provoke a new war.

That's your pattern and I am just going to pretend you don't exist unless

you have something serious and intelligent to discuss.

As far as out government is concerned, you have three choices -

1: acccept and defend it

2: no accept it and try to change it

3: take the next flight to Iraq and work with the poor.

Just a quick question . . . You constantly yell about the poor and all the social injustices, so what are you doing about it? Have you giving up you comfortable lifestyle to feed and cloth the poor??? Do you travel by bike and heat will solar energy so you don't burn fossil fuel?? Do you invite the homeless into your home?

But if you want to remain in the thread because you enjoy the discussion, you should not have to be nagged. I have said much about my faith, but because I have not allowed my faith to be picked apart exactly as Laurend discussed, I have been ben mocked by you and Ron. I do not know if it is worse to pick apart a Mormon's or Muslim's faith, or to do it to a fellow Christian, because he got to the point of being a Christian through a different path than you or Ron.

Telling someone that you can leave the thread if you don't like the nagging equates with people who tell me that if I don't like the BuSh administration's decisions, I can leave America.

I'm trying to understand. I'm not trying to attack. I sincerely don't understand, for want of a better term, salad-bar Christianity. But if there's a valid reason for it, I'd like to. You've been the only one so far who's willing to discuss it. I suspect it's because you're secure in your beliefs and are willing to defend them. But if anyone else would like to discuss it as well, I'd be happy to engage more than one person.

But later. I have to get some things done around the house now.

I will piss some people off with this comment, but so be it.

You and Ron continually say that you are not trying to attack, but what you do is more akin to vultures picking at the bones.

Some of us on this thread are Christians who have come to be Christians by a different path that you. We do not take the Bible to be “word for word” literally true. When we tell you that, you insist on "picking apart the bones" of why we feel that this Biblical story is not true or how can we be Christians if we do not believe that Biblical story(?).

No, it is not an attack, it is an attempt at an insidious erosion and coercion of our will, much like would be done by acid eating away at a strong piece of metal. No bombs, no missiles, just constant corrosion until our metal breaks down and you can hear, yes, yes, every word of the Bible is true.

Well, you will not hear it from me and the more you push, the more resistance you will get.

ONE MORE TIME: I AM A CHRISTIAN, BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE AS A LITERAL DOCUMENT, BUT I BELIEVE MY FAITH IS AS GOOD AS YOURS.

And you have no right to pick my faith apart or to belittle it.

All we're asking is "How do you know about Jesus and whatever it is you believe" if it didn't come from the Bible??? What are you basing it on?? It's a simple question!

I will piss some people off with this comment, but so be it.

You and Ron continually say that you are not trying to attack, but what you do is more akin to vultures picking at the bones.

Some of us on this thread are Christians who have come to be Christians by a different path that you. We do not take the Bible to be “word for word” literally true. When we tell you that, you insist on "picking apart the bones" of why we feel that this Biblical story is not true or how can we be Christians if we do not believe that Biblical story(?).

No, it is not an attack, it is an attempt at an insidious erosion and coercion of our will, much like would be done by acid eating away at a strong piece of metal. No bombs, no missiles, just constant corrosion until our metal breaks down and you can hear, yes, yes, every word of the Bible is true.

Well, you will not hear it from me and the more you push, the more resistance you will get.

ONE MORE TIME: I AM A CHRISTIAN, BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE AS A LITERAL DOCUMENT, BUT I BELIEVE MY FAITH IS AS GOOD AS YOURS.

And you have no right to pick my faith apart or to belittle it.

You talk about my pattern? Let's talk about yours . . .

1: Try to turn every discussion into a "hate Bush" rally

2: Pick apart other religious beliefs without having the gut to talks about

you own.

3: Try to use the Bible, a book you don't know or believe in, to

make biblical points you don't understand

4: Do everything you can to provoke arguments so you can comment on

them.

5: Things quiet down, and you start all over again to provoke a new war.

That's your pattern and I am just going to pretend you don't exist unless

you have something serious and intelligent to discuss.

As far as out government is concerned, you have three choices -

1: acccept and defend it

2: no accept it and try to change it

3: take the next flight to Iraq and work with the poor.

Just a quick question . . . You constantly yell about the poor and all the social injustices, so what are you doing about it? Have you giving up you comfortable lifestyle to feed and cloth the poor??? Do you travel by bike and heat will solar energy so you don't burn fossil fuel?? Do you invite the homeless into your home?

My belief in the Bible is my business and my knowledge of it is relatively extensive.

As mentioned earlier, I have mentioned BuSh in about 5% of my posts in this thread, but since he is so intertwined with religion in the USA, I do not consider that to be excessive.

You have no right to tell me to leave the USA and go to Iraq. I am a US citizen who was born here, pays taxes and has voted in every election since I became old enough. The USA has not yet become Nazi America, thank God.

I do my part to help the poor, including in taking part in my church's activities. and I drive an economy car and use low energy light bulbs, but I do not have to explain my life-style to say that you are a bully who is annoyed that the majority of the LBT members in this thread have not submitted to your religious intolerance.

All we're asking is "How do you know about Jesus and whatever it is you believe" if it didn't come from the Bible??? What are you basing it on?? It's a simple question!

That is none of your business.

That is your opinion!

No one told you to leave the country. As usual, you are twisting my words and making things up. I listed three choices that we all have. I didn't tell you to do anything.

And, no, you don't have to explain your lifestyle to me. I just thought since you are always yelling about social injustice and the down trodden, that you would be going to great lengths to change the world unless it's all just talk.

Regarding you religious conviction, let me see if I understand you correctly. Your beliefs are off limits to discuss, you can tear apart mine, is that what you're saying? That's not a discussion, thats like Socialism, which is another name for liberalism isn't it? Now who's the reall bully here??

My belief in the Bible is my business and my knowledge of it is relatively extensive.

As mentioned earlier, I have mentioned BuSh in about 5% of my posts in this thread, but since he is so intertwined with religion in the USA, I do not consider that to be excessive.

You have no right to tell me to leave the USA and go to Iraq. I am a US citizen who was born here, pays taxes and has voted in every election since I became old enough. The USA has not yey become Nazi America, thank God.

I do my part to help the poor, including in taking part in my church's activities. and I drive an economy car and use low energy light bulbs, but I do not have to explain my life-style to say that you are a bully who is annoyed that the majority of the LBT members in this thread have not submitted to your religious intolerance.

There is an insidious undercurrent that many in the USA are not aware of. Many people of good will are being swept up into it unknowingly.

In this thread, it has been said and agreed with that anyone who disagrees with the President's policies should be tried as a traitor. Ann Coulter may have wrote the book, but there are many supporters, including some of the posters here.

It has also been said that people should vote for candidates that would put their religious values into law.

If enough candidates are elected by members of one religious group, then the laws can be and will be changed to reflect that group's religions values or what some of the extremists see as the religious values of that group. The USA is 80% Christian according to the latest figures I have read.

Ann Coulter and her followers are prominent in one of the largest pockets of Christian political thought and one of the most vocal and most politically active. They will work tirelessly to get their agenda put into law.

Though there are many different kinds of Christians, a president may someday be elected, who will take measures to promote his version of Christianity and when people disagree with him, they will be tried as traitors. Soon, who will have the nerve to speak out.

How many people were afraid to speak out in the days right after 911?

I wasn't and I was verbally assaulted for being unamerican and a traitor, and invited to go to a Muslim country to live.

How many people were afraid to speak out in the days right before and right after the invasion of Iraq?

I wasn't and I was verbally assaulted for being unamerican and a traitor, and invited to go to a Muslim country to live.

When Ann Coulter gets her way and the majority of elected officials know that the Bible would want them to promote Christianity, what else will people be afraid to speak out about?