Someone recently passed this article on to me, which I posted on another board. It was promptly removed. So sad . . .

Frightening News from France

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently

not being reported as it should. To give you an idea

of what's going on in France where there are now

between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews,

here is an email that came from a Jew living in

France. Please read! Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?

"I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to

everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back

and do nothing." Nowhere have the flames of

anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France:

Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set

on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center

was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and

Marseilles; so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently.

A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with

Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred

Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" were

painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a

Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The

bus that takes Jewish children to school in

Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen

10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past

30 days. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been

defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to the gas

chambers" and "Death to the Jews."

A gunman opened fire on a Kosher butcher's shop

(and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse , France;

a Jewish couple in their 20s were beaten up by five

men in Villeurbanne , France . The woman was

pregnant; a Jewish school was broken into and

vandalized in Sarcelles , France . This was just in

the past week.

So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a

friend, or merely a person with the capacity and

desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do,

at least, these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let

yourself become deluded into thinking that this is

no t your fight. I remind you of what Pastor

Neimoller said in World War II: "First they came for

the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I

wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and

I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they

came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up,

because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one left to speak up

for me".

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the

Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and,

unlike them, France exports more than just oil and

hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes.

Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott

their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If

we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and,

whatever else we may know about the French, we most

certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a

hurricane in the face of well directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends,

and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of

good conscience that you know and let them know

that you and the people that you care about need

their help. The number one best selling book in

France is "September 11: The Frightening Fraud,"

which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon."

OK, here are a few verses to make the point(s) we discussed

You say that homosexuality does not have a bad effect on society and did not in Sodom. Apparently Jude disagrees -

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Fornication is not exclusivly homosexual. Neither is "strange flesh" referring to homosexuality alone.

About weather a Christian ought to take a stand against sin (homosexuality & same sex marriage)

1 Peter 4:11 - If any man speak,let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ . . . How we vote is speaking publically about what we believe. Is condoning an abomination giving glory to God?

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy,so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Same argument, Is condoning an abomination holy?

Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.| Can you abhor an abomination and vote for it too??

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin . An abominable sin is certainly unrightousness!

There are countless more, but this should make the point.

My vote isn't publicly speaking about anything. And yes, I believe I can seperate how I decide to live my life from how I think we should legally require others, who are not Christians, to live theirs.

I love the freedom I have that allows me to choose what I will do, how I believe I need to honor my God. I'm not willing to give that up. So, I can't support laws that are based on just what the Bible says. That in NO WAY OR SHAPE means I don't live by what I think it says. I'm just not willing to legally require anyone does.

OK then, suppose you tell me what "strange flesh" means here in the context of this verse about Sodom??

Fornication is not exclusivly homosexual. Neither is "strange flesh" referring to homosexuality alone.

My vote isn't publicly speaking about anything. And yes, I believe I can seperate how I decide to live my life from how I think we should legally require others, who are not Christians, to live theirs.

I love the freedom I have that allows me to choose what I will do, how I believe I need to honor my God. I'm not willing to give that up. So, I can't support laws that are based on just what the Bible says. That in NO WAY OR SHAPE means I don't live by what I think it says. I'm just not willing to legally require anyone does.

That is certainly your choice! I am just pointing out that is it inconsistant with scripture. What you do with that information is your business.

That is certainly your choice! I am just pointing out that is it inconsistant with scripture. What you do with that information is your business.

No, it is inconsistent with what YOU think that scripture says. It's not with what I think it says.

Someone earlier said they were glad they were going to answer to God, not you. I feel the same. You can tell me all you want I'm not a good Christian, that I'm not following the Bible, and it doesn't bother me in the least. I know who I will answer to someday, and believe me that matters MUCH more to me then what you or anyone else on this earth thinks of how I'm living. I rest easy at night, well except for that CPAP machine I'm stuck with... :biggrin1:

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion and I have no problem with that. But, you made a statement about "strange flesh" not meaning homosexuality in the verse I sent to you. You havn't answered regarding what else it could possible mean in the context of that verse. Please respond.

No, it is inconsistent with what YOU think that scripture says. It's not with what I think it says.

Someone earlier said they were glad they were going to answer to God, not you. I feel the same. You can tell me all you want I'm not a good Christian, that I'm not following the Bible, and it doesn't bother me in the least. I know who I will answer to someday, and believe me that matters MUCH more to me then what you or anyone else on this earth thinks of how I'm living. I rest easy at night, well except for that CPAP machine I'm stuck with... :biggrin1:

But, you made a statement about "strange flesh" not meaning homosexuality in the verse I sent to you. You havn't answered regarding what else it could possible mean in the context of that verse.

"Strange flesh" could easily mean bestiality or even adultery.

You certainly don't have to answer to me about anything. Let me ask you a question! You said last week that if you had to vote about same sex marriage you would abstain. How do you think Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, James, Moses or any of the men of God in scripture would have answered that question?

I honestly believe (and you can call me a sell-out, that I comprimise my faith, etc, etc, etc) But I beleive they would not interfer as long as it did not put restriction on following their faith. I would vote whole-heatedly against anything or anyone who tried to pass laws that limited my ability to worship God as I felt called to do. Again we go back to God giving us free will. The early Christians , to the best of my knowledge, did not try to get Ceasar to change the laws to make the Roman empire a Christian nation. They only wanted to be allowed to worship as they wanted.

And I agree with everything you just said, but you are missing the point. We are not talking about any laws that prohibit or require anyone to worship or not worship any way they please. We are talking about laws that condon and make legal acts the the Bible and God calls abominations. There is a very big difference here.

I honestly believe (and you can call me a sell-out, that I comprimise my faith, etc, etc, etc) But I beleive they would not interfer as long as it did not put restriction on following their faith. I would vote whole-heatedly against anything or anyone who tried to pass laws that limited my ability to worship God as I felt called to do. Again we go back to God giving us free will. The early Christians , to the best of my knowledge, did not try to get Ceasar to change the laws to make the Roman empire a Christian nation. They only wanted to be allowed to worship as they wanted.

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion and I have no problem with that. But, you made a statement about "strange flesh" not meaning homosexuality in the verse I sent to you. You havn't answered regarding what else it could possible mean in the context of that verse. Please respond.

I said what you posted didn't specifiy homosexuality. My PC is acting up, so bear with me.

In the NIV, Jude 1:7 talks about sexual imorality and perversion. Which covers a lot. And yet, you focus on one thing.

"Strange flesh" could mean many things, including beasility. I see nothing in that verse the singles out homosexuality.

Not within the context of that verse, and not speaking about a city that was known for it's homosexuality. Beastiality was not an issue that we know about in Sodom. There is no reason to indicate that "strange flesh" could mean adultry, and every reason to indicate that is means homosexality, which Sodon was noted for.

"Strange flesh" could easily mean bestiality or even adultery.

"Strange flesh" could easily mean bestiality or even adultery.

LOL-Yep.

This goes back to my feelings about how Ron interprets the Bible. He is focusing on homosexuality, when those verses don't mention it. I give God a great deal of credit for being specific when it's important.

And I agree with everything you just said, but you are missing the point. We are not talking about any laws that prohibit or require anyone to worship or not worship any way they please. We are talking about laws that condon and make legal acts the the Bible and God calls abominations. There is a very big difference here.

I don't agree (yeah, big surprise I know). Things being an abomination are part of beliving in a given religion. So, you can't seperate it out from saying they are indeed laws about worshiping as one sees fit.

Not within the context of that verse, and not speaking about a city that was known for it's homosexuality. Beastiality was not an issue that we know about in Sodom. There is no reason to indicate that "strange flesh" could mean adultry, and every reason to indicate that is means homosexality, which Sodon was noted for.

Where in the bible does is say Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality specifically?

And I agree with everything you just said, but you are missing the point. We are not talking about any laws that prohibit or require anyone to worship or not worship any way they please. We are talking about laws that condon and make legal acts the the Bible and God calls abominations. There is a very big difference here.

But I am not missing the point. You asked specifically how I thought our predecessors or Jesus would vote and I answered that question and why. How did I miss the point?

And it is accurate. Taken in context, it can mean nothing else by homosexuality, which is what Sodom was known for. In the very next verse it speaks about them "defileing the flesh"! Beastility is not even something to consider because it is never ever mentioned in connection with Sodom. I suspect you picked that up from someone elses post.

You asked previously what I meant about picking and choosing verses to believe and changing or not believing verses that were inconvenieve with you opinions. This is exactly what I meant. The meaning of the verse is clear and obvious, and you want to change it's intent and meaning to support your opinion.

I said what you posted didn't specifiy homosexuality. My PC is acting up, so bear with me.

In the NIV, Jude 1:7 talks about sexual imorality and perversion. Which covers a lot. And yet, you focus on one thing.

"Strange flesh" could mean many things, including beasility. I see nothing in that verse the singles out homosexuality.

And it is accurate. Taken in context, it can mean nothing else by homosexuality, which is what Sodom was known for. In the very next verse it speaks about them "defileing the flesh"! Beastility is not even something to consider because it is never ever mentioned in connection with Sodom. I suspect you picked that up from someone elses post.

You asked previously what I meant about picking and choosing verses to believe and changing or not believing verses that were inconvenieve with you opinions. This is exactly what I meant. The meaning of the verse is clear and obvious, and you want to change it's intent and meaning to support your opinion.

Ah, but where is homosexuality mentioned in connection with Sodom? It talks about sin and sexual perversion, I don't see a list anywhere of what specific acts that covers.