Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[green 6]

The above listed site is another pro-life site. It says so at the bottom of the page.

[anonemouse 1]

They simply don't exist, or not from what I've found.

A lot of scientific journal articles are difficult to find on the internet. If you had access to a research library, or some databases, there would probably be plenty.

[Sunta 4]

Sorry, but this information on pro-choicers raping and killing pregnant women is as valid as some of the other rediculous, laughable things the pro-life organizations say, like:

"Pro-choice is a morally bankrupt position, which can be readily seen by applying the same approach to owning slaves, committing rape, having sexual relations with children, or any number of other "choices' that people sometimes want to make."

"By pro-choice some mean that there is no right or wrong, no better or worse road to travel in life. All choices are of equal value and everyone can and should just do what they want. This is the road to anarchy, to the complete breakdown of society."

Now let's look at some things they say about Gays:

"There is actually a lot of evidence that homosexuality cannot be inborn. Many people engage in homosexuality for a time, then leave it behind."

"Plenty of evidence attests to the damage to the body, mind and spirit resulting from homosexual sex."

Sorry, I'm out of time, but I could cut and paste a million false statements from these Christian organization Websites.

I don't have time to disprove the statements above today, but if anyone wants me to, I'd be happy to when I get back online tonight. Suffice it for now to say they are absurd.

That's why it's difficult for me to take any of their "statistics" seriously.

Off to get an X-Mas tree at mom's...

[lisah25 3]

Second, the instances of violence against pro-lifers is much higher than by pro-lifers; statistically, this includes the conviction rates as well.

(this grid doesn't copy well; the first number is reported incidents; the second number is convictions)

Incidents by pro-life against pro-abortion 164 12

Incidents by pro-abortion against pro-life 218 15

Incidents by police against pro-abortion 0 0

Incidents by police against pro-life 29 11

Total 411 38

I'd be a lot more interested in seeing this stat expressed as a percentage then raw numbers. Oh, and I don't know anyone really who is pro-abortion, I know lots who are pro-choice. It really is a different thing. I would never have an abortion, but I am pro-choice.

Don't overlook the real, good work that churches do because you're watching the guy on the news who's standing alone with his sign.

That I couldn't agree with more! :clap2:

[gadgetlady 4]

A lot of scientific journal articles are difficult to find on the internet. If you had access to a research library, or some databases, there would probably be plenty.

When I was getting my Masters and PhD (which I never completed) in Political Science, my thesis was on abortion. I was consistently never able to find any documentation that was from an organization, group, or person without a bias.

I learned to not throw out the baby with the bathwater, and to sift through information from both sides that was well documented. When I garnered information from the side with which I did not agree, I learned to ignore the rhetoric and focus on the facts.

[gadgetlady 4]

Sorry, but this information on pro-choicers raping and killing pregnant women is as valid as some of the other rediculous, laughable things the pro-life organizations say, like:

"Pro-choice is a morally bankrupt position, which can be readily seen by applying the same approach to owning slaves, committing rape, having sexual relations with children, or any number of other "choices' that people sometimes want to make."

"By pro-choice some mean that there is no right or wrong, no better or worse road to travel in life. All choices are of equal value and everyone can and should just do what they want. This is the road to anarchy, to the complete breakdown of society."

Now let's look at some things they say about Gays:

"There is actually a lot of evidence that homosexuality cannot be inborn. Many people engage in homosexuality for a time, then leave it behind."

"Plenty of evidence attests to the damage to the body, mind and spirit resulting from homosexual sex."

Sorry, I'm out of time, but I could cut and paste a million false statements from these Christian organization Websites.

I don't have time to disprove the statements above today, but if anyone wants me to, I'd be happy to when I get back online tonight. Suffice it for now to say they are absurd.

That's why it's difficult for me to take any of their "statistics" seriously.

{sigh}

I never said these sites weren't pro-life; in fact, I indicated that they WERE. And I know there's rhetoric that many will disagree with. I wasn't asking anyone to believe or even listen to the rhetoric.

The information that the NAF includes picketing in their description of "acts of violence" came from the NAF site. I also found it on pro-life sites, but it was confirmed on the NAF site. The count each picketer as an act of violence.

The NPG website (Negative Population Growth) takes a very strong stance against illegal immigration. If I believed in supporting population control but also believed that illegals had a right to immigrate to the US, must I then take the stance that therefore all statistics on the NPG site about population are ludicrous?

Just because you don't agree with the position doesn't mean you should ignore the evidence. The evidence about violence against pro-lifers doesn't require anyone believing it to become pro-life. Why can't we decry violence against a group if we don't believe in their philosophy?

I don't believe in abortion. But I will stand side-by-side with those who do and say that violence against abortion clinics or abortionists is wrong.

[gadgetlady 4]

One other thing. If you don't believe the statistics, how about believing me? I am a personal witness to the violence perpetrated against pro-lifers. I have been spat on, pushed, kicked, cursed, had people bare their breasts and rear ends in the hopes that I would be offended and leave, and I have witnessed countless other acts of violence against others. I have never ONCE seen any pro-lifer do any of those things in retaliation. I have been to hundreds of protests and demonstrations and I have never ONCE seen any violence by pro-lifers. But I have been victim to it at least 20 times and I have seen it many, many more. It is not only tolerated by those in favor of abortion (at these events), but it is often encouraged.

Is there violence by pro-lifers? Yes, there is. But it is generally very scattered, rare, and often not the work of a group but of a misguided individual. Overwhelmingly the pro-life movement is a peaceful one, using tried and tested methods of civil disobedience.

[anonemouse 1]

I do believe you. But just because you have experienced it doesn't mean that it is common. I know it exists, just like I know that violence against pro-choice people exists. Do I think either is as common as either the pro-choice or pro-life organizations say? No. I personally feel that both groups are out to paint as bad a picture of the opposition as they can.

[green 6]

I think I am pro-choice too, only because what happens with a woman's body and her unborn baby is between her and God, not her and the government. I'd rather see her make her own choice in a clean, experienced place than seek out help wherever she can find it.

In my case, 'abortion' didn't hurt me physically, I guess. I went on to have two beautiful children of my own. However, my 'abortion' wound up taking place at the hands of a well meaning (?) medical Dr. No, probably not. He made the decision for me. I went to consult him on what my options were. During the exam, he stated that the baby was 'already dead', then I suddenly felt a very painful stick. Basically, he broke my membranes at about 6 weeks pregnant. He then informed me that I should 'miscarry' within about 2 days. Which I did. I began to cramp severely within 24 hrs, then within 48 hrs blood suddenly gushed to my feet with no warning. Then, I was forced to report to the hospital for a D&C to scrape all the remains of a very small little boy out of my uterus. I learned later that I had a lot of scarring on my uterus due to this procedure, however, it did not hinder my ability to carry children later, thankfully. Nonetheless, all this was done without ever having made the definite decision to abort. My decision was made for me and today, 27 yrs later, I still wonder who that little boy would have become. Hurt, yes. Emotionally, I have to live with this decision that was made for me. And I was one of the lucky ones.

Many become sceptic and die, some can never have children again, some think they aborted only to find that they are still giving birth, many do fine and slip on their jeans and go shopping or out partying again the same night. Many are never quite the same emotionally. I'm sure all at some time wonder about the nameless, faceless little boy or girl who might have been.

I am very much pro-choice. I do believe that this is an issue that must remain between the woman who finds herself pregnant and her medical support team. Indeed, I am always outraged whenever I hear men weighing in on this issue for this is situation that is life altering for a woman but pretty much academic for men.

The truth is that there have always been women who have found themselves pregnant and in the position where they felt that they could not proceed with the pregnancy. Before abortions were legal these women availed themselves of backstreet abortionists or they attempted to do it themselves. Rich women had access to doctors. Their survival rate was much better than those women who were poor.

Though I am very suspicious of pro-life cant I did recently read an article in one of my local newspapers that made reference to an article that originally appeared, I think, in Lancet. This piece referred to the negative after effects that abortion seems to often engender. Of course I am aware that this last couple of sentences sound awfully vague. To tell you the truth I read this little piece with a sinking heart because I am resolutely pro-choice.

Like Leatha, I have had an abortion. I had this when I was in my early 30s after years of practising very, very careful birth control. I had to practise birth control because it was impossible to find a doctor who would sterilize me. I've always known that I never wanted to have a child.

It seems that this may not be the case for many of the women who opt to have abortions. These are women who are simply frightened because they find themselves pregnant at a given moment in time. They are pregnant at a point in their lives when they shouldn't be, and mustn't be. As to where these women stand with respect to the larger issues of womanhood and maternity, these may be very complicated indeed.

But the point of legalized choice is this: if a woman feels herself to be so hard up against it that she would resort to a backstreet abortionist or attempt a DIY job, and then render herself sterile or die, well then, isn't it better that a healthy and legally sanctioned option remains open to her?

[GeezerSue 7]

I just got here and I'm still stuck on the "what's-wrong-with-the-Jim-Bob's" issue.

That Wiki article tells us that Mr. Jim-Bob is a follower of Gothard (I love to mispronounce that name), a guy with a store-bought Ph.D. who thinks that all single people should live home with Mommy and Daddy LIKE HE DID, forever, and that owning a Cabbage patch Kid will make your daughter weird, mostly because CPK's have Satanic middle names. (Run-on sentence much?)

And then the Jim-Bob's, using books authored by this genius, expose their children to each other and NO ONE ELSE. Is this a recipe for creating normal people? (Uh...no.)

The good Reverend Got-hard, used to sell out the tents, but what with the sexual corruption charges he's admitted to...need I continue?...SSDD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gothard

[skyeblu79 0]

Why do we care how many children a person has? All I can do is do my part in the world. Recycle more, be more conservation with our resources, maybe get a hybrid car. . For Christmas, I am getting myself An Inconvenient Truth.

I truly care more about the state of our children than the #. There are so many issues with kids nowadays and IMO, that is the more pressing issue. No matter how dumb you think it is, you can't stop someone from having 20 kids. Why not focus on what you can influence?

I was reading an article today where Christmas trees were taken down @ some airport, b/c of one complaint. Is it really that serious?

Or in this thread the Statue of Liberty holding a cross. Who's it hurting? I probably wouldn't have done it or donated towards to the fun, but who cares? Is it really that serious?

My friend and I went to a meeting she was mad that a Muslims did a prayer for the Muslims.....Is it really that serious?

Sure it would be easier everyone believed like me, but that's not happening. Whether you believe in God, Muhammad, Jesus, Jehovah, Buddah, no one that is your choice. And just b/c people are the same religion or even denomination doesn't mean we are all the same. Different people interpret things differently.

Oh, yah....And I learned Baptist don't dance. (That may have been a joke I don't know). Either way it was funny along with a lot of the thread.

Why do we have to take stuff so seriously? Why doesn't it hurt people to see stuff that doesn't have to do with their own faith. Why not push more to get your stuff out there if you are that concerned?

And I understand where the other “childless heathes” are coming from. I hope to have children one day, but no time soon. Some people (my mother included) act like being 27 with no kids is like the world coming to an end. My sister is 32 and also has no children. I have told my mother to adopt a grandchild.

Oh, and I am a Christian (Baptist), Democrat, Pro-Gay Rights, and Pro-choice for others (pro-life for myself), and against the death penalty, against censorship, for free of speech (but even more for having compassion of your fellow man).

Oh, and the show16 and moving in is going on @ 10:00pm tonight.

[Carlene 12]

A BLONDE GOES TO THE POST OFFICE TO BUY STAMPS FOR HER CHRISTMAS CARDS.

SHE SAYS TO THE CLERK, "MAY I HAVE 50 CHRISTMAS STAMPS"?

THE CLERK SAYS, "WHAT DENOMINATION"?

THE BLONDE SAYS, "LORD HELP US, HAS IT COME TO THIS"? "GIVE ME 6 CATHOLIC, 10 PRESBYTERIAN, 10 LUTHERAN, 14 METHODIST AND 10 BAPTIST"!

[Sunta 4]

Or in this thread the Statue of Liberty holding a cross. Who's it hurting? I probably wouldn't have done it or donated towards to the fun, but who cares? Is it really that serious?

Yes. It's really that serious. I'm deeply concerned over the political clout fundamentalist groups are gaining on a daily basis. I'm deeply concerned that the president of the US is a born-again Christian who lets his religious beliefs influence our legislature. The entire world except for us views the war in Iraq as a religious war. Did you know that? Think they could be right?

I find it all really scary, but I refuse to be afraid. I won't be intimidated by the fundamentalist groups out there who flex their political muscles at every turn.

It's really easy for Christians to say "don't be so serious", because they are Christian. The statue doesn't deeply offend, hurt, and scare them like it does people of other faiths. Tell me honestly, what do you think would happen if that statue was erected holding the Quran? Seriously. What do you think would happen? Do you think people would be upset? Just a little? Do you even think fundamentalists would allow it to stand? Do you think they would be frightened by it? Would they think it was a bastardization of a symbol of the United States?

Since I don't seem to be doing a good job explaining how the statue makes me feel, let me let others speak for me. Here are some comments I found on the internet regarding the statue and why it's offensive:

(these are all quotes from other people, and are much more eloquent than anything I could write):

"To put the end on this debate though, I offer this piece of evidence. George Washington, the Father of our country, and John Adams (Second President of the USA) CLEARLY stated in the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, “The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion.”

"The one major fallacy in your comment is that the American government was not founded on ‘Christian’ values. Some of the founding fathers where not Christian and most abhored organized religion in general. America’s founders were intellects. Modern American fundamentalist Christianity is nothing short of anti-intellectual. Thus modern fundamentalist Christianity is in opposition to what this country’s government was founded on."

"This just makes me sick. Literaly I am sick to my stomach just reading about this abomination. I feel sorry for those who must live in the area. I hope those who want to can get out.

What a terible backwards thing to do. On top of that... what an amazing ignorance of history. The people who do things like this scare me."

"Retro-viral drugs, which are extremely effective against the strain of the AIDS virus currently ravaging the African continent, cost $1 per person per day. $260,000 would provide one year of treatment to approximately 712 people. If this church had given $260,000 to battle the AIDS pandemic in Africa, the media would have noticed, and the world would have "seen their good works and [taken seriously] the Father in Heaven." Instead they squandered $260,000 of God’s money, the media noticed, the world laughed and justifiably continued to dismiss the message of Christ because of the stupidity of the message bearers."

"Give me your paycheck, your allowance, Your hard earned money yearning to be wasted, The crisp cash of your teeming wallet. Send these, the ignorant, tempest-tost to me, I lift my offering plate beside the church door!"

These are the words that came to mind when I saw this ghastly Christian monstrasity. This 72ft, quarter-million dollar freak show is compliments of the World Overcomers Outreach Ministries Church in Memphis. But they couldn’t have done it alone. All of this money came from their 12,000 members in the community who apparently couldn’t find a better use for it like poverty, drug abuse, etc. But never fear, Pastor Alton R. Williams faced the 72-foot statue and blessed the city of Memphis against disease, crime, intolerance and poverty."

"The first time I saw this I honestly thought it was a joke. Not only do these people disgust me, the downright scare me. Why not take that quarter MILLION and actually do something positive with it?"

"What is bothering us so much about it?!? It’s an explicit expression of the desire of American fundamentalists to make Christianity the official religion of America. It’s an endorsement of a theocracy over democracy. Since it is an blatant and obvious example of religious extremism."

"The statue of LIBERTY being turned into a religious symbol for a specific religion is INtolorance not tolorance.

I respect their right to free speach. But I also have the right to be offended and that is an offensive display. Its completely contrary to the concept of liberty. Its also amazing how ignorant this group is of history."

[gadgetlady 4]

"To put the end on this debate though, I offer this piece of evidence. George Washington, the Father of our country, and John Adams (Second President of the USA) CLEARLY stated in the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, “The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion.”

This is actually not an established fact. There is debate about whether Article 11 ever existed in the original text, and some indication that it didn't appear until 1930.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not defending the statue. I think it's ridiculous. I just think it's important to get the facts straight.

[gadgetlady 4]

A BLONDE GOES TO THE POST OFFICE TO BUY STAMPS FOR HER CHRISTMAS CARDS.

SHE SAYS TO THE CLERK, "MAY I HAVE 50 CHRISTMAS STAMPS"?

THE CLERK SAYS, "WHAT DENOMINATION"?

THE BLONDE SAYS, "LORD HELP US, HAS IT COME TO THIS"? "GIVE ME 6 CATHOLIC, 10 PRESBYTERIAN, 10 LUTHERAN, 14 METHODIST AND 10 BAPTIST"!

Good one, Carlene.

{um, is anyone afraid of offending the blondes on this board}

(in case of questions, that was an attempt at humor)