Health Care

[KartMan 58]

Socialized medicine, with a splash of free market, that would undoubtedly fail pretty rapidly. That is what you want. Thats fine, however the majority of America does not agree with you. Myself included. If you want this type of coverage, move somewhere it is offered. No one else in the world can do that at the scale that we would have to do it. So it would undoubtedly fail eventually as well. Canada has trouble with it on a scale 1/10th of America. Sweden? 1/30th of America I believe. So unless someone like China, does it and it works well for everyone, not just some, lets not be the guinea pig, when the consequence is so large, and the outcome is so certain.

It’s not socialized medicine – that is nothing more than a talking point. At best, it might be described as socialized insurance administration. Socialized medicine would be more like our VA or the British system (I’m not advocating for either of those). In those systems, the administration, hospitals, and doctors are ALL employees of the government. We actually do it here today, its called Medicare. And here is a surprise, it actually works and the people that get it like it pretty well. The part of Medicare that doesn’t work in its funding. We haven’t increased the taxes on it to keep up with inflation and people are living longer now than when it was first conceived. So if it costs more and you fund it the same you will have a shortfall – simple math.

Don’t tell me to move. I am a small business owner (I do provide insurance to my employees btw), a tax payer, a veteran, and a voter. I’m not saying my plan is the one the majority wants, I am just saying it is the one that make the most sense to me.

[BJean 16]

airbus: "California does have state taxes, and we also pay property tax. So things are little different tax wise here, believe it or not."

I've lived in Arizona where we were taxed up the wazoo and Virginia where we had similar tax and red tape and Montreal where, by golly, we had excellent health care, and Florida where the taxes weren't too bad but the state government sucked, and Oklahoma that turned out to just be posers with high insurance, Texas well, we all know about Texas and their main politician who thinks it's clever to speak of cessation from the union (reminds me of the Quebequois) and other places that have helped form my experience and knowledge base about taxes and the benefits from paying taxes.

You choose to live in California, right? How's that working for ya? Are you one of those friendly folks who voted to stop gay marriage?

[ariscus99 1]

I'm not arguing, you understand. But you are wrong about my role in politics and government. And you are wrong about a lot of things. You speak of my use of "talking points" but your use of them is what prompted my anti-tax rant.

So I understand now. If YOU think it is important, you don't mind paying taxes for it. But since YOU have a good health care plan (for why else would you be arguing the way you have been against what is it you call it? "Obamacare") since YOU have a decent health plan, YOU don't think that the system needs to be changed.

How very open-minded, thoughtful and generous of spirit. Not.

Shall I quote all the post's just in the last day where I've said the system NEEDS TO CHANGE! I can if thats what it really takes to get through to you. However you've read them all, so you should already know that I am for changing the healthcare system, just not the way it's changing too. You seem to be stuck on the thought that if someone isn't for obamacare, then they must like it the way it is. Actually, I can be against obamacare, and be for health care reform. It's a novel idea I know.

[ariscus99 1]

airbus: "California does have state taxes, and we also pay property tax. So things are little different tax wise here, believe it or not."

You choose to live in California, right? How's that working for ya? Are you one of those friendly folks who voted to stop gay marriage?

Rjean, I do choose to live here, it's working fine, I couldn't find another job that pays what mine does, with the hours I work and the time I have off, probably anywhere in this country. We pay high taxes, thats all I'm saying about it. And no(gasp) I'm not one of those friendly folks who voted to stop gay marriage, it has no affect on me personally, and I have several gay friends as well as couple gay relatives, and if they want to be married I say let em. My wife was a little bummed when on our marriage application instead of saying "man and wife, or bride and groom" or whatever it used to say, you just enter your name and check a box that says what sex you are, but she got over it. I actually voted for them to get married, and against the ban that took that right away. I know, crazy right? A right wing fundie who hates, all the poor people and black people and taxes and America, but doesn't hate the gays.....:smile::confused:

[BJean 16]

kartman it may not be the plan that most Americans want, but it is the plan that they need. Most Americans seem to still believe the stigma that was planted in their brains for years about "socialized" medicine.

Most of them don't understand the possibilities that a universal health care system represents. All they know is what they've been told and they've been told nothing but horror stories.

People generally are opposed to change. They like to keep the status quo. It's what is familiar to them, they understand it and it takes no work on their part.

But most Americans know that the system we've had for so long, sucks eggs. And now they're scared of the new plan coming out of Washington because they don't understand it. They think it will take work on their part. They think that it is going to force them to pay lots more taxes. They just fear change, period. And with the right wing extremists yelling death panels and the rest, they're running around like chickens with their heads cut off. (Or chicken Little screaming "the sky is falling") But the thing that is the most horrible is how they've made this personal.

It's the right wing against the president. President Obama is evil incarnate.

There has not been one president in my lifetime, which is considerable, who has done more to cross party lines and try to be a fair and moderate representative of the people. But the Republican crazies, the extremists, the birthers and Sarah Palin all still hate Obama and blame him and perhaps the Speaker of the House for things that have not happened and will never happen. And they scream it at the top of their lungs. It is just plain disgusting and embarrassing. Oh and stupid. Did I mention stupid? Very, very stupid.

[ariscus99 1]

It’s not socialized medicine – that is nothing more than a talking point. At best, it might be described as socialized insurance administration. Socialized medicine would be more like our VA or the British system (I’m not advocating for either of those). In those systems, the administration, hospitals, and doctors are ALL employees of the government. We actually do it here today, its called Medicare. And here is a surprise, it actually works and the people that get it like it pretty well. The part of Medicare that doesn’t work in its funding. We haven’t increased the taxes on it to keep up with inflation and people are living longer now than when it was first conceived. So if it costs more and you fund it the same you will have a shortfall – simple math.

Don’t tell me to move. I am a small business owner (I do provide insurance to my employees btw), a tax payer, a veteran, and a voter. I’m not saying my plan is the one the majority wants, I am just saying it is the one that make the most sense to me.

Socialized insurance administration? Well if the government pays the ins. and the ins. pays the doctors, then in turn, the government is paying the doctors, so.... socialized medicine again. Maybe not complete socialized medicine, because most hospitals are government ran yet, but it's still pretty much socialized medicine. Your calling Medicare socialized medicine, and your advocating for medicare for all, doesn't that mean socialized medicine for all?

[BJean 16]

I'm glad you like California livin' airiscus. Some of my best friends are Californians. They're not gay though, god forbid.

And to be truthful I am pretty shocked that you voted to keep gay marriages legal. Nothing like having one in the family to sway one's opinion, right?

You are one of the ones who has made it personal by calling it "Obamacare" and your hyprocisy is showing.

Damn and I said I wasn't going to engage with you anymore. My bad. You're real good at getting me to rant. So if you're tired of my long-winded tirades, don't address your comments to me, um kay?

[BJean 16]

"Socialized insurance administration? Well if the government pays the ins. and the ins. pays the doctors, then in turn, the government is paying the doctors, so.... socialized medicine again. Maybe not complete socialized medicine, because most hospitals are government ran yet, but it's still pretty much socialized medicine. Your calling Medicare socialized medicine, and your advocating for medicare for all, doesn't that mean socialized medicine for all?" ariscus

See what I'm saying kartman? It's a fraud perpetrated on Americans to their detriment. I just want to yell, "Snap out of it!" and get them to listen to reason. But I gotta tell ya, Limbaugh, Palin, Beck and those buggers who keep the fear alive and well-fed, are way more convincing than you or I.

[loserbob 11]

California does have state taxes, and we also pay property tax. So things are little different tax wise here, believe it or not.

Patty, I thought you where a nurse! This is really Patty Green under a new user name!

[ariscus99 1]

See what I'm saying kartman? It's a fraud perpetrated on Americans to their detriment. I just want to yell, "Snap out of it!" and get them to listen to reason. But I gotta tell ya, Limbaugh, Palin, Beck and those buggers who keep the fear alive and well-fed, are way more convincing than you or I.

Read his post, he called medicare, socialized medicine. And prior to that he had advocated for medicare for all. If that doesn't equal socialized medicine for all tell me what it equals? I didn't call obamacare socialized medicine I don't think, unless thats another one of those pesky post's that keep disappearing like kartman was having trouble with earlier before he decided he couldn't win that argument because he was making stuff up and trying to represent it as my opinion. And don't worry your "long-winded tirades" really aren't all that long or hard to read. It's kind of interesting to see you say the same thing over and over, and make the same false accusation of me even after I rebut it over and over again. You get stuck thinking something and just don't know how to get off it.

[BJean 16]

You make extreme comments and then when someone goes off on a tangent in a reply, you feign innocence. Yeah, you're innocent of everything I've accused you of. Okay let's start over.

You hate paying taxes, but only when it's for something you like. Did I get that right?

You don't like George Bush, you didn't vote for him, but you're beholding to him for keeping your body from being blown away by a terrorist. Did I get that right?

You think it is fair to call the current bill that has been passed "Obamacare" and you equate it to socialism. Am I wrong about that?

You voted to keep gay marriage legal in your state but we shouldn't think badly of you because you have gays in your family. Is that about it?

I'm curious, in light of what loserbob just said. If you were passing out food to people who thought they needed food, but one of them was smoking a cigarette, would you deny them that food? Just curious...

P.S. I'm pretty sure you called it "obamacare" on more than one occasion but I am not willing to spend my time tracking it down. So you can score one for you, if you think that it's not what you said.

[loserbob 11]

Protected me and my country from additional terrorist attacks.

Ya, thats what I thought. So I guess you like Obama then. He has stepped up attacks in Pakistan and has caught a few high value Taliban leaders. He has kept us safe also! Im glad to hear

you like Obama. Assumeing thats your only criteria. Hes also "fighting them over there so we dont have to fight them here". You guys are all the same. You spout at the mouth, regurgitating what Hannity and Beck say.

[BJean 16]

"fighting them over there so we dont have to fight them here

Wonder how our military feels about being simply pawns put out there to die so we don't have to feel threatened. Good Lord! This has made me sick to my stomach when I've heard those freaks of nature say it.

George W. Bush is such a pansy-ass, that is probably the primary reason he wanted our armed forces over there.

[ariscus99 1]

You make extreme comments and then when someone goes off on a tangent in a reply, you feign innocence. Yeah, you're innocent of everything I've accused you of. Okay let's start over. You hate paying taxes, but only when it's for something you like. Did I get that right? You don't like George Bush, you didn't vote for him, but you're beholding to him for keeping your body from being blown away by a terrorist. Did I get that right? You think it is fair to call the current bill that has been passed "Obamacare" and you equate it to socialism. Am I wrong about that? You voted to keep gay marriage legal in your state but we shouldn't think badly of you because you have gays in your family. Is that about it? I'm curious, in light of what loserbob just said. If you were passing out food to people who thought they needed food, but one of them was smoking a cigarette, would you deny them that food? Just curious... P.S. I'm pretty sure you called it "obamacare" on more than one occasion but I am not willing to spend my time tracking it down. So you can score one for you, if you think that it's not what you said.

Your mostly wrong, we'll go over these so your clear as to where you stand.

1. I don’t like paying taxes, who does? It matters not what they are for. My gripe isn’t that I don’t want to pay for things I don’t want, or don’t like, it’s that I already pay and exorbitant amount, now I’ll have to pay more, being penalized for being successful, I didn’t think that was part of America. So no, you don’t have that right.

2. I don’t like Bush, didn’t vote for him, and I am glad while he was president a terrorist didn’t kill me. That’s correct. I’d bet you feel the same way. You hate him, you didn’t vote for him, and I’ve got to believe you’re glad you weren’t killed by a terrorist while he was president.

3. I do think it’s fair to call it obamacare, it’s a nickname, I hear it all the time, and even on the left wing news outlets when I flip threw them. Also to go along with that thought process, this bill will be paramount to the obama presidency, one way or another, he will live or die by this so, calling it obamacare is actually kind of fitting. I imagine by you asking this, you think calling it this is bad. But you are right I have called it that. But I don't remember calling it socialism, so this actually a wrong now too. Sorry didn't read thoroughly the first time.

4. I did vote to keep gay marriage legal, why would you think badly of me for that? Yes I have a gay cousin; she didn’t influence my vote at all. I actually didn’t know about her sexual orientation until after the first vote. It’s just not something that bothers me, if you think badly of me for that, I apologize. So you’re wrong here too.

So all in all, you got one of four points correct. 25%, that’s an F. Sorry. I don’t know what the last question is regarding? But no; I would not exclude someone from getting free food for smoking. That seems a little strange. People have vices, who cares.

Edited March 23, 2010 by ariscus99
had to correct the score didn't see the socialism dig the first time

[ariscus99 1]

Ya, thats what I thought. So I guess you like Obama then. He has stepped up attacks in Pakistan and has caught a few high value Taliban leaders. He has kept us safe also! Im glad to hear

you like Obama. Assumeing thats your only criteria. Hes also "fighting them over there so we dont have to fight them here". You guys are all the same. You spout at the mouth, regurgitating what Hannity and Beck say.

Do I like the fact that we haven't been successfully attacked so far, under obama? Absolutely, if you read my posts about GWB you'll see that I said I didn't like him much. Didn't vote for him, but was thankful to not have been killed by terrorists while he was president. So yeah, I love obama on that point. Most other's? No.