Yowza! This hurts!

[slimmap 1]

Jacqui, I have found out that what you say is true. People can't just eliminate an entire food group and think that it is healthy for the long haul. I also think that a lot of people hear the word "carbs" and they immediately think of starchy foods. Carbs are found in exceptionally healthy foods such as strawberries and blueberries I believe they have antioxidants), brocolli and green Beans, whole grains, etc. For someone to not eat foods like the ones I just mentioned is probably not what the creators of lap band had in mind. And as for those forbidden foods...well I have to agree again with you. If I want some chocolate, I will have it. But I will probably buy a Hershey bar when I am with somebody who will either eat the other half or cheer me on when I throw the other half in the garbage. We just have to remember that we all want to grow very old and be healthy, too. We cannot do that if we don't put healthy foods in our bodies everyday, and exercise too.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Jacqui, I have found out that what you say is true. People can't just eliminate an entire food group and think that it is healthy for the long haul. I also think that a lot of people hear the word "carbs" and they immediately think of starchy foods. Carbs are found in exceptionally healthy foods such as strawberries and blueberries I believe they have antioxidants), brocolli and green Beans, whole grains, etc. For someone to not eat foods like the ones I just mentioned is probably not what the creators of lap band had in mind. And as for those forbidden foods...well I have to agree again with you. If I want some chocolate, I will have it. But I will probably buy a Hershey bar when I am with somebody who will either eat the other half or cheer me on when I throw the other half in the garbage. We just have to remember that we all want to grow very old and be healthy, too. We cannot do that if we don't put healthy foods in our bodies everyday, and exercise too.

Who is suggesting cutting out a food group? Since when is flour and sugar a food group?

[slimmap 1]

I wasn't talking about a food group, overall. I was talking about carb overall, such as fruits abd vegetables, and how many people think of them as starches only. The chocolate bar I talked about concerned only forbidden foods.

[slimmap 1]

I did not say flour and sugar are a food group.

[keithf 2]

I don't know that I agree with that thinking as much as what we are feeding children today.

But it's not just "what"... it's "how".

"Eat It" was a tragically amusing song for one specific reason, which I think is very salient here: pretty much every lyric Weird Al put into it was something I'd heard *constantly* around me (and, occasionally, to me). "Have some more <cake, pie, whatever>", "Finish your plate, because people are starving in <name some random country that would never notice whether you ate less or not>", and so forth.

In school and hourly jobs, we're encouraged to spend as little time eating as possible, but we still somehow need to fit in a meal whose size and content are pretty much invariant. This results, generally, in over-filling the plate with low-grade food, and stuffing it down as quickly as possible.

If you're in poverty, the only foods you can generally get are primarily variations on starch mixed with more fats than needed for flavor, nutrition, and satiety: rice, potatoes, white bread, Pasta, ramen, with oil, butter, cheese-colored-substance, salt.

If you're in a culinary backwater, you're pretty limited to what your neighbors eat, because it never occurs to you that there's something else. I'd never heard of romaine lettuce until college, and had pretty much no concept of broccolli as anything other than the mushy, bitter monstrosity Bush Sr would eventually decry, again until college when I discovered Chinese food was more than just chow mein. I'd never touched cilantro until after college, and just this year I introduced my brother to Indian and Thai food -- he's almost 30.

All these things pile up, and additives or not they really complicate matters.

Now, if you look at the diets of people 100 years ago... I don't know how they survived to adulthood. It was just as bad but bad in a different way. Bacon and eggs every morning, huge loads of fat and calories for their main meal and craploads of Desserts.

I highly suspect most folks you're referring to (farmers, etc) didn't have much in the way of Desserts, except on rare occasions when they could afford them (I certainly don't remember Laura Ingalls mentioning frequent desserts). Bacon, eggs, meat, potatoes absolutely -- this is what they could grow themselves. Sugar? Not so much. Maple Syrup? More often, but you had a limited harvest time if I recall (eg, winter). What sweeteners they could grow would be most likely: berries, fruits, beets, all of which have much more to offer than straight fructose. Sugar and hard candies were available, but how often could a family afford it in the volumes we'd consider "normal"? We have more purchasing power for stuff we shouldn't eat than existed in the past. We've become very efficient at making cheap swill.

Overall, of course -- definitely much more active. But the quality of the food was also different, and the price a bit more dear.

watching TV he's more likely to choose the cookie just like once you start feeding an infant fruits they prefer the sweet flavor over veggies.

I used to pop Vitamin C pills *as* candy when I was younger :tongue_smilie:

I agree on this point. There are a lot of folks out there feeding their kids soft drinks. Even infants. It doesn't help that you walk into a store to pick up something to drink while you're out, and discover the Water is more expensive than Water that's got a lot of flavorings added to it.

A couple weeks ago. I actually scolded someone else's child (pre-teen, but more than old enough to know better). I caught her under a closed check-out with her toddler sister, snarfing down a candy bar. Her excuse? "But it was just lying on the floor!". Can we count how many things are wrong with that statement? I mentioned it several times, loudly, in the direction of her mother (at the next check-out, trying to figure out how to write a check), who didn't notice. But the girl gave me such a look of hatred, it was precious. What I really wanted to do was grab her mother by the hair and drag her over so she can see some specific points of failure-to-parent.

I don't know that it is fair to blame full signals in children, I think a better bet is to see what they are eating and how they are moving their bodies. Don't you remember when you were a kid? When I was a kid we were outside playing hard all day long. We were riding bikes, running, chasing one another, playing all kinds of games. We came home for meals and between meals we were burning calories. That's not the case today.

I read (tried Romeo and Juliet by seven, and War and Peace by eight -- got lost in the first party or so). Revenge of the Nerds was pretty accurate.

I also did marching band, which was much more enjoyable than PE, no offense to my uncle. PE was just a way for the jocks to exclude the nerds even more. PE in college was much more interesting: rifle, fencing, scuba.. no rope-climbing, dodgeball, or other ways to set up the non-athletes for failure and humiliation. Physical Education needs a drastic overhaul -- there is life outside of ball sports and track, and it would better target the folks that need it.

When you cut out foods that contain flour and sugar most noobs feel like there is nothing left to eat.

But for most folks, that's a very accurate assessment. Cut out flour, sugar, corn, and rice. How large would your local grocery store have to be to hold everything that remains? Eating healthily means spending more per bite. The fact that we can afford to take fewer bites is a seperate issue. I think you allude to this when talking about your local dollar store.

A few weeks before surgery I hopped onto Amazon hunting for WLS cookbooks. Have you *read* the customer reviews for some of them? There was one book that dared to step outside of Middle American cuisine, and suggest such things as Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, or East Asian foods. Complaints ensued from unimaginative (and unassertive) housewives. Primarily:

- "I can't pronounce this un-American, heathen word. How can it possibly be edible?"

- "I live in <cultural ghetto>. I've never heard of <insert spice other than salt and pepper>, therefore I can't possibly use this recipe."

- "This isn't macarroni-and-cheeseburger-pizza! My kids would never eat this!" (did she ever try telling them to eat it, or go to bed without that can of caffinated corn syrup?)

eat similar foods to a rabbit. But that didn't happen overnight, it was a work in progress. Today it's what I prefer and fast food places stink a lot. I can't stand the smell.

Mmmm... rabbit. :frown:

You can keep the Beans and aphids (they primary source of Protein, and significant one, every time I went to an organic vegetarian restaurant run by a Buddhist monastary in San Francisco).

About six months ago there was a lady that contacted me about her daughter. She wanted help with getting insurance to cover banding for her ***9*** year old daughter. This kid was 9 years old and has a BMI of 73. She was already riding a scooter because she couldn't walk anymore due to the size of her thighs. Her feet weren't close enough together to be able to walk. She wanted to band her daughter because she too, was MO and didn't want to change her own eating habits. If she kept her fav foods in the house her daughter would eat them so her thinking was band the kid and the family didn't have to change their own food habits. What kind of sicko crazy thinking is that?

Oof.. My BMI when I entered my bariatric program was just under 50 -- I'm a little on the lighter side for what my surgeon typically works on.

Did you tell her she had to change, to save her daughter? I would have, in no uncertain terms.

But afterward, I would also have gone to her daughter's physician and slap the hell out of him for not reporting this as a form of child neglect. This child *didn't* get this way overnight, and probably not from something like Cushing's syndrome. The child's food intake is primarily dictated by the parent. I'm glad she was thinking of ways to reverse her child's condition, but yes -- very disturbing that self-sacrifice wasn't immediately seen as an option, and moreso that a third party didn't force aggressive correction of the underlying parenting issue.

Hell, *my* dad at least tried to put me on a low-fat/high-Fiber diet when I was that age, and between he and his wife even altered their food to match (toward turkey from beef).

The state should have been involved much earlier, to enforce the proper care of the child. "Parental rights" be damned.

That said, none of this surprises me. I have a dim view of the vast majority of new parents of the last 20-30 years.

[luluc 6]

PE was just a way for the jocks to exclude the nerds even more. PE in college was much more interesting: rifle, fencing, scuba.. no rope-climbing, dodgeball, or other ways to set up the non-athletes for failure and humiliation. Physical Education needs a drastic overhaul -- there is life outside of ball sports and track, and it would better target the folks that need it..

overhaul? it actually needs to be put back into place.

i think a big reason for the lg number of obese children is the fact that PE has been removed from the curriculum & the quality of the lunch menu provided.

and overhaul there "might" start to fix the problem...

i appreciate your post about the isolation of athletes vs those who don't care to be on the football team - there should be different levels / or separate classes offered.

i think doing away with getting a kid up an moving during the day is a detrement....

[keithf 2]

overhaul? it actually needs to be put back into place.

Mild disagreement. I know what you wanted to say, but I think it's less putting-it-back than it is replacing it with something that actually benefits the folks that need it.

I think, though, we're in agreement. You wouldn't have enrolled me in algebra year after year -- I could have taught it. So why enroll the athletes in PE, provided they continue to meet a standard of fitness? Surely some of them could use additional time to study algebra.

[luluc 6]

Mild disagreement. I know what you wanted to say, but I think it's less putting-it-back than it is replacing it with something that actually benefits the folks that need it.

I think, though, we're in agreement. You wouldn't have enrolled me in algebra year after year -- I could have taught it. So why enroll the athletes in PE, provided they continue to meet a standard of fitness? Surely some of them could use additional time to study algebra.

pretty sure i know what i wanted to say = PE needs to be back in the schools at all grade levels with different classes available based on skill or want.

ie - the athletes could go to the gym and lift weights / hit the track running, those "not athletes" - could do tennis / golf / archery /bowling / swimming etc.

i meet the fitness standard based off BMI/Body Fat % - yet i still workout 5 days a wk. just because i got there doesn't mean i stop.

i sucked at algebra - didn't need it in my field.

having a active / fit lifestlye benefits everyone - and it should start early as a kid.

just my opinion - no need to read anymore into that.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

If you're in poverty, the only foods you can generally get are primarily variations on starch mixed with more fats than needed for flavor, nutrition, and satiety: rice, potatoes, white bread, Pasta, ramen, with oil, butter, cheese-colored-substance, salt.

That is not true, it is absolutely wrong.

MidwesternGirl's Profile

I highly suspect most folks you're referring to (farmers, etc) didn't have much in the way of desserts, except on rare occasions when they could afford them (I certainly don't remember Laura Ingalls mentioning frequent desserts). Bacon, eggs, meat, potatoes absolutely -- this is what they could grow themselves. Sugar? Not so much. Maple Syrup? More often, but you had a limited harvest time if I recall (eg, winter). What sweeteners they could grow would be most likely: berries, fruits, beets, all of which have much more to offer than straight fructose. Sugar and hard candies were available, but how often could a family afford it in the volumes we'd consider "normal"? We have more purchasing power for stuff we shouldn't eat than existed in the past. We've become very efficient at making cheap swill.

I disagree, Mrs. Ingalls was known for her apple pie and chocolate cake. ;o)

I collect antiquarian books and mags. I have a couple of years worth of Ladies Home Journals from the late 1800s and they list menus and recipes and every single main meal has a recipe for a dessert. It talks about having a variety for main dishes as well as desserts and I have to tell you, the recipes do sound kinda gross.

Eating healthily means spending more per bite. The fact that we can afford to take fewer bites is a seperate issue. I think you allude to this when talking about your local dollar store.

See above link.

Did you tell her she had to change, to save her daughter? I would have, in no uncertain terms.

What do you think? ;o)))))

[LindaD 3]

I highly recommend the book Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. Yes, he, like anyone else who writes on this, clearly has his own bias. But the book seeks really to question the bias of many of those who set policy and write the food pyramid etc. He questions many of the theories that have been adopted as Truth but are not.

I consider it one of the most important books I have ever read.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I highly recommend the book Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. Yes, he, like anyone else who writes on this, clearly has his own bias. But the book seeks really to question the bias of many of those who set policy and write the food pyramid etc. He questions many of the theories that have been adopted as Truth but are not.

I consider it one of the most important books I have ever read.

Based on your opinions I just ordered the book.

If anyone is interested, they are pretty inexpensive and you can get it new (hardcover) for under $10 here:

AddALL Rare Used and Out of Print Book Search

I LOVE this site for used and new books. You can usually find just about any book you are looking for, in or... out of print.

[keithf 2]

That is not true, it is absolutely wrong.

MidwesternGirl's Profile

I could recite what everyone *I* knew ate as kids on welfare, and say instead that you are absolutely wrong. The fact remains that the cheapest foods are by and large also the least nutritious.

My food budget about 10 years ago was about one or two bucks a week, and I was working at the time. With that, I could buy..

- 2 large apples and have a two Snacks (or 2 meals, now).

- or two dozen packages of raman (as low as 10 cents each) and eat for a week.

The cheapest I can find chicken at the store is currently about 90c/lb. While chicken and apples would be great, it wouldn't last long enough. Also, I had no kitchen and no refridgeration. Shelf stability was a requirement.

Cashews, currently, are around $7.50/lb locally, and even peanuts are a couple bucks per pound.

It strikes me that, growing up, that was probably not far removed from what my family's per-capita food budget was.

Of course there will be exceptions. That is why I said "generally".

I disagree, Mrs. Ingalls was known for her apple pie and chocolate cake. ;o)

My mother was known for her apple pie as well. But she only made it maybe once or twice a year.

I collect antiquarian books and mags. I have a couple of years worth of Ladies Home Journals from the late 1800s and they list menus and recipes and every single main meal has a recipe for a dessert. It talks about having a variety for main dishes as well as Desserts and I have to tell you, the recipes do sound kinda gross.

There are many things many people consider good for me that I consider gross. Beans.. brussel sprouts.. oysters.. tofu.. oatmeal.. cooked cabbage..

Cool on scoring the books and mags. I've got a couple books from somewhere 1895-1905ish (I'd have to re-check, the one in particular I could name is Tale of Two Cities), and I used to have a geometry book from not much later.

I any case, I wouldn't expect a magazine to provide examples of typical cuisine. I wouldn't even consider most recipe books to do so, either. Most of them have historically been geared toward social occasions, not anthropology. Even old recipe boxes are going to contain items more likely to be occasional dishes: all the common ones would be memorized, and simpler. The fact that what you mention is pretty dessert-heavy makes me believe this is true with them as well.

There are exceptions, of course -- I have a cookbook put together by the local Sons of Norway. It could be retitled "1001 ways to cook with cream of mushroom soup".

I'm sure Laura's access to sugar and chocolate -- both imports -- increased greatly after she moved to the large city, but I doubt Caroline was able to provide her with regular desserts in the years before that. Rose, maybe.. but she was working in San Francisco IIRC. The invention of the car also would have increased access.

Anyway, you should post some of the recipes. I have friends who I'm sure would love to play with them. Anything for stewed bison.. maybe with some rosemary? I'd settle for lamb if LHJ contributors were too east coast for it. This reminds me: I still have some wild boar in my freezer I need to eat (Thanksgiving).

...

But back to something resembling the original thread -- has anybody found any Calcium citrate pills that *can* be swallowed whole without PBing? I can take my ursodiol no problem, but the only chewable Calcium I've been able to find as been calcium carbonate, which I'm warned against by virtue of the decreased uptake it provides.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I could recite what everyone *I* knew ate as kids on welfare, and say instead that you are absolutely wrong. The fact remains that the cheapest foods are by and large also the least nutritious.

But the discussion was not what *do* people eat, it was can one eat inexpensively and healthy. That was the topic. I am the one that brought up the cheap white carbs. My point is that you can eat very healthy maybe even cheaper than white carb-canned-no nutrition Pasta and sauce. I flat out gave you alternative examples of cheap healthy foods.

The cheapest I can find chicken at the store is currently about 90c/lb.

Just today I saw chicken thighs/legs for $0.29 a pound. A big chunk of dead bird/cow/pig does not have to be the main portion of the entree. It's not even very healthy to do that anyway.

My mother was known for her apple pie as well. But she only made it maybe once or twice a year.

Mom isn't Mrs. Ingalls. ;o)

I any case, I wouldn't expect a magazine to provide examples of typical cuisine.

In this case I beg to differ, this is Ladies Home Journal. That is what it was in print for, for ladies to exchange ideas.

Anyway, you should post some of the recipes. I have friends who I'm sure would love to play with them. Anything for stewed bison.. maybe with some rosemary? I'd settle for lamb if LHJ contributors were too east coast for it. This reminds me: I still have some wild boar in my freezer I need to eat (Thanksgiving).

OMG I love these mags! They are priceless. A version of "Dear Abby" is in there, beautiful dress patterns, just beautiful. Not that I would want to wear that stuff today (itchy, tight, hot, uncomfortable) but absoluletely beautiful dresses. Ads for tape worms (their diet technique of the time), ads in general. recipes for everything made from scratch... I adore these mags.

But back to something resembling the original thread -- has anybody found any calcium citrate pills that *can* be swallowed whole without PBing? I can take my ursodiol no problem, but the only chewable Calcium I've been able to find as been calcium carbonate, which I'm warned against by virtue of the decreased uptake it provides.

Yes, just ordered some today. It's a capsule so the capsule will dissolve in your pouch and the Ca Citrate will drain to your stomach. Take three daily:

NSI Nutraceutical Sciences Institute - Vitamins, supplements, Herbs and Nutritional Formulas

Or they have nasty chewables.< /p>

[RestlessMonkey 7]

But back to something resembling the original thread -- has anybody found any calcium citrate pills that *can* be swallowed whole without PBing? I can take my ursodiol no problem, but the only chewable Calcium I've been able to find as been calcium carbonate, which I'm warned against by virtue of the decreased uptake it provides.

Citrical Petites...available at Walgreens and, I'm sure, your local grocer or pharmacy. They are small. They are swallow-able (is that a word? probably not) and they don't have to be chewed. AND yes, they are calcium citrate.< /p>

[elcee 3,340]

One food I would love to be able to eat more of is fresh fish. However the cheap imported (from areas that may not be totally sanitary) types are currently about Aus$18 per kilo and good quality fish eg Salmon and tuna are in excess of Aus$30 per kilo.

I remember when we used to eat bread or toast with dripping(the fat that comes off the roast meat). In fact in the early 60's diets had a lot more fat in and people were not as obese. We also used to eat desserts - my mother,aunties,grandmother would have desserts most days, usually fruit and custard and at weekends they would bake rhubarb crumbles, fruit cake, apple pies etc.

But we did not eat as much in between meals and there were very few convenience foods. A small packet of crisps or a tube of smarties was a treat not an every day occurence. Fruits and veg were eaten in season and were fresh - it was not possible to get everything all year around! And yes people did a lot more incidental exercise then.

I would still like to know why with all these "labour saving" devices i don't have more spare time.

I would actually like to get a WW2 cookbook. I think it is amazing what people survived on with rationing and how inventive they were. i think they used mashed parsnip with some kind of flavouring as a banana substitute etc.

We may have strayed far from the original topic but this is actually a really interesting thread! LOL,